Home > Radical Islam, Theology and Eschatology > The Mark of the Beast – What Your Church May Not Be Telling You

The Mark of the Beast – What Your Church May Not Be Telling You


By ICA

Revelation 13:16-17, “He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

A literal and physical mark, or something else?The most popular view today regarding the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 13 is that it is a literal mark physically placed in the forehead or right hand of those who worship Antichrist. Many teachers of Biblical eschatology will even refer to modern 21st century technology and point to some type of tattoo or implantable microchip under the skin when attempting to explain the mark.  But why?  What is in the text that leads many to believe that this mark must be physical when, after all, virtually every one of us would agree that while the book of Revelation speaks about the dragon, the Beast, the “Whore of Babylon” or the mark of Christ upon the elect etc. that these descriptions are not referring to a literal dragon, a literal animal, a literal prostitute or a literal seal of Christ? This is obviously figurative language pointing to something completely different.  On the other hand, so to speak, is there anything from Scripture to indicate for us that this mark need not be a physical mark at all, but could instead be something else entirely?

After careful consideration, I believe that the Mark of the Beast is very likely a spiritual mark just as the mark of Christ upon the elect is spiritual.  Since many will resist the suggestion that a figurative Beast will also have a figurative mark, despite the fact that there is nothing in the text stating that the Mark of the Beast must be physical, it is important to rightly divide the Word of God and study, from the whole of Scripture, the significance of the hand and head and how it often relates to man’s condition in the Biblical text.

Arguments Against a Figurative or Spiritual Mark

First, however, let’s begin with arguments that are often issued against a figurative or spiritual mark.  Some will contend that if John literally saw a mark in the forehead and hand of those who worshiped the Beast then it must therefore have been literal and physical. This, however, is a poor argument considering that John “saw” the seal of God upon the foreheads of the elect as well, yet everyone agrees this seal is spiritual in nature. Since we know that the seal of God is not literal, “seeing” the mark in the forehead of those who worshiped the Beast likewise does not mean that it must be a physical, literal mark.

Others may argue that because John used the word “charagma” (G5480) for “mark” which means “a stamp, an imprinted mark” that it must refer to a literal mark because it is physical by definition, but this — again — is another example of poor argumentation because John employs many other words throughout Revelation that refer to something physical by definition yet uses them figuratively as symbols of something else entirely. For example:

Revelation 13:17 – the beast – “therion” G2342 – an animal, a wild beast
Revelation 12:3 – Dragon – “drakon” G1404 – a dragon, a great serpent
Revelation 12:3 – horns – “keras” G2768 – a horn; of animals
Revelation 12:3 – crowns – “diadema” G1238 – a diadem; a kingly ornament, crown
Revelation 14:4 – Lamb – “arnion” G721 – a little lamb, a lamb

Art used by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.

Art used by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.

According to the “charagma = physical mark” argument, the Beast should be literal. The dragon should be literal. The ten horns on the head of the dragon, the crowns, the lamb, etc. etc etc. should all be literal because the words that John used refer to things that are physical by definition.  We would all agree, however, that these are figurative.  It does not stand to reason that the figurative dragon, with the seven figurative heads, ten figurative horns and a figurative crown upon each figurative horn — a figurative dragon who hates the figurative woman and who gives power to the figurative Beast that opposes the figurative lamb (a figurative lamb who figuratively marks those who follow the figurative lamb with a figurative seal) — puts a literal, physical mark upon those who worship the figurative Beast. The song “One Of These Things (Is Not Like The Other)” comes to mind, doesn’t it? It makes much more sense that the word “mark (charagma)” is used figuratively by John, just as “lamb (arnion)” and “crowns (diadema)” and “horns (keras)” and many others all refer to something physical and tangible that we can identify with. All are symbolic or spiritual, not literal and physical.

The Significance of the Head and Hand, and Being ‘Marked’ in Scripture

As for the significance of being ‘marked’ in the head or hand, let’s review a few portions of Scripture that refer to the head and hand and what these terms mean in those specific contexts.

Exodus 13:9 says, “And it shall serve AS A SIGN to you on your hand, and AS A REMINDER to you on your forehead, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the LORD brought you out of Egypt.”

The Lord said that His words are to be as a sign on our hand, and as frontals on our foreheads. The word “as” is “used to express similarity or equality in a specified characteristic, condition, etc., as between one person or thing and another.” It means “like” or “similar to.”

Sign: H226 Strong’s Bible Dictionary “ôth” – Probably from H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal, as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: – mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token.

Deuteronomy 6:5-8, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall bind them AS A SIGN ON YOUR HAND and they shall be AS FRONTALS ON YOUR FOREHEAD.”

Deuteronomy 11:18, “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them AS A SIGN ON YOUR HAND, and they shall be AS FRONTLETS BETWEEN YOUR EYES.”

James 4:8, “Come near to God and he will come near to you. WASH YOUR HANDS, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you DOUBLE-MINDED.”

Psalms 119:48, “My HANDS ALSO I WILL LIFT UP to Your commandments, Which I love, And I will MEDIATE ON YOUR STATUTES.”

Instead of interpreting Scripture to conform to our understanding, we must allow our understanding to conform to Scripture. When Scripture is permitted to interpret itself we’ll then begin to see why the Mark of the Beast need not be literal at all, but is instead simply an identifying mark upon the head or forehead to represent the mind, what you believe, your faith, how you think, and in the right hand to represent actions, works, what you do. There is nothing in the text necessitating a physical and visible mark upon the forehead or right hand as in a microchip or tattoo or anything else that a people or government can physically place therein or upon. It just doesn’t exist.

The Mark of the Beast – A Closer Look

Aside from those who worship the Beast, the only other figure in the book of Revelation directly related to the Beast and described as having a mark or name upon their forehead is one who many Bible scholars and prophecy teachers refer to as the “Whore of Babylon.”  This “woman” is described as being carried by the Beast (17:7), and all agree she is figurative and identified by the name upon her forehead. This alone should beg the question: If the name marked upon the forehead of this “woman” is figurative to designate identity, would this not then infer that the Mark of the Beast is itself also a figurative mark to designate identity, especially considering the fact that the mark of God upon the foreheads of the elect is itself also figurative to designate identity (Rev 7:3, Rev 9:4, Rev 14:1, Rev 22:3-4)?  Common sense would dictate that, yes, it would.

In Scripture, the seal of God upon the forehead of the elect refers to those who keep the commandments of God and who do not worship the Beast.  Conversely, those who have the Mark of the Beast would therefore be identified with those who worship the Beast and do not worship God. This would be the direct antithesis to the mark of Christ and symbolic of worship, of allegiance, of identity to permit all readers of Revelation to know to whom the individual or group belongs to and to whom their allegiance lies.  And for those with the Mark of the Beast, it is not with YHWH the God of Israel. Just as those who worship Christ receive the mark of Christ and are “sealed for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30), those who worship the Beast receive the Mark of the Beast and will “drink of the wine of the wrath of God” (Rev. 14:9-10) and suffer the same fate as the “Whore of Babylon”: destruction.

The Beast Carries the “Whore of Babylon” – Who Is She?

In chapter 5 of the book of Zechariah we read about a vision that Zechariah was given of a flying scroll and a “wicked woman”.  An angel tells Zechariah that “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land” at the appointed time (5:3,11). The Prophet Zechariah then writes that “the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, ‘Look up and see what this is that is appearing.’ I asked, ‘What is it?’ He replied, ‘It is a measuring basket.’ And he added, ‘This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land.’ Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman” (Zech 5:5-7).  Zechariah continues, “He said, ‘This is wickedness,’ and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed the lead cover down over its mouth. Then I looked up–and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth. ‘Where are they taking the basket?’ I asked the angel who was speaking to me. He replied, ‘To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When it is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.’” (Zech 5:8-11).

babylon-empire-map2Of particular interest here is the fact that this “curse” is described as a “woman” who would be set up in “Babylon” (Shin’ar). The Babylonian Empire encompassed areas of Saudi Arabia (the birthplace and spiritual homestead of Islam) to the south, to parts of Asia Minor (Turkey) in the north, and from Egypt in the west to Persia (Iran) in the east. This area is today the regional epicenter of Islam. Additionally, one intriguing aspect to the “curse” that goes out over the whole land is that the word for “curse”, and even how it is pronounced, is the Hebrew word “alah”. The Prophet Isaiah, in describing the condition of the earth at the time leading up to the Second Coming of Messiah, says that “the curse [alah] has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate” (Isa 24:6).  To dwell in the earth does not in and of itself make one “desolate”. But the same cannot be said for those who dwell in the “curse.”

There should be little doubt that the “woman” of Zechariah 5 that would have a house built for it in Babylon directly represents the “Whore of Babylon” referred to earlier. Over 600 years after Zechariah’s vision of the end times, John in Revelation 17 is given a vision of the future and of “the great harlot who sits on many waters … And on her forehead a name [was] written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” (17:1,5).  Given the fact that the “Whore of Babylon” directly represents the curse (alah), is being carried by the Beast, and is herself marked with a name upon her forehead, does it not stand to reason that the Mark of the Beast would therefore be associated with, or directly related to, the “woman” and “curse” (alah) prophesied by Zechariah and John?

Narrowing It Down and Zooming In

Moreover, let’s also consider the following. The Church of God — the assembly of His people — is called the “Ekklesia” in Scripture and in terms of location is identified with Jerusalem, Israel. This is the epicenter of the Judeo-Christian faith. If the “Bride” of the Lamb is identified as a city called “Jerusalem” (Rev. 21:9-10, “Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife… and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God”) then does it not stand to reason that the “Whore of Babylon” would also be associated with a city of its own? From the preponderance of the evidence that we are given throughout Scripture, the “whore” identified by John in Revelation is associated with the epicenter of Islam itself. And what would that be? The city of Mecca. Whereas the Judeo-Christian faith came out of Jerusalem, Islam came out of Mecca, the birthplace of “Allah’s religion” and the spiritual city of the “Ummah”.  She is the “whore of Babylon”. “Babylon” is the Islamic kingdom. The Islamic kingdom is the Beast. (And for what it’s worth, Mecca is known as a “city of seven hills” in the Muslim world).

Babylon: Spiritual Confusion and the Quagmire of Islam

The name Babylon written upon the forehead of this “woman” comes from the Hebrew word Babel, which means “confusion (by mixing)”. Since the region of ancient Babylon is today the epicenter of Islam and its god “Allah”, it is befitting to note a brief history of the founder and ‘prophet’ of Islam, Mohammed, and his self-proclaimed holy book, the Qur’an.

In an effort to entice Jewish and Christian converts to Islam, Islam’s ‘prophet’ incorporated a twisted mix of Jewish and Christian teachings with the existing Babylonian religion of Arabia early in his campaign to gain adherents to his “new” monotheistic Arab religion (formerly polytheistic), even going so far as to claim that “Allah” was the same god that Jews and Christians worshiped [1].  But Jews and Christians would not be deceived and, already familiar with the polytheistic religion of the Romans and their Greek gods, understood full well that just as abolishing all other Greek gods except Zeus would not suddenly make Zeus the God of Israel, neither would abolishing all Babylonian gods except for the moon god “Allah” suddenly make Mohammed’s god the God of Jews and Christians. This complete rejection of Mohammed and his teachings infuriated the ‘prophet’ of “Allah”, resulting in subsequent “revelations” for the Qur’an for the next 20 or so years that grew increasingly hateful and violent against Jews, Christians and all non-Muslims in general. This twisted mixing of Judeo-Christian teachings, Babylonian paganism and vengeful anti-Semitic and anti-Christian hatred is what permeates every crevice of Islam, even today.

Islam – Belief, Behavior, Bureaucracy, and Business

According to Islam, anyone who believes that Jesus was God in the flesh who died on the cross for the sins of mankind, a foundational tenet upon which Christianity is built, is accused of committing the worst of all possible sins called “shirk”. In Islam, this is an unpardonable sin that “Allah” will never forgive. In Christianity it is the key to everlasting life. But although Islam includes religious teachings as a vital, integral part of its core — Muslims must pray five times a day, and the only way for any Muslim to guarantee Paradise after death is to wage Jihad and be killed for the cause of “Allah” — it is not just simply a religious ideology that seeks to assert itself in place of Christ and all other religions. It is also a works-based system that completely encompasses legal, political, economic and even military components as well that seek to replace all other non-Islamic religions, values, laws, governments and economies until only Islam reigns supreme throughout the world [3]. Not only does Islam force its adherents to submit to “Allah” and his ‘prophet’ and demand that you reject any belief that Jesus is the Son of God and all other non-Islamic teachings, it also teaches that “Allah” weighs the good deeds and bad deeds of Muslims on a scale to determine who makes it into Paradise, and who does not.

In contrast, notice how we as Christians only receive a mark on our foreheads when we are sealed by God. Why not in our right hand as well? Unlike Islam, which is based upon works, Christians are saved by grace through faith, by being born again, by believing in the true Jesus of Biblical Scripture who died upon the cross, by being transformed by the renewal of our mind. We are not saved by works, lest any one should boast (Eph 2:9).

No One Can Buy or Sell Unless They Have the ‘Mark’

The biggest question that many will have regarding a symbolic mark is, “If the Mark of the Beast is only symbolic, how can those who do not have a literal mark not buy or sell?” This is often used as well by some as an argument against a figurative mark, arguing that any such mark must be visible and/or physical if it is required in order to buy or sell.  However, the answer to this question is much simpler than many may think.

When it comes to the conditions that exist in many Islamic nations for Christians, Dr. Labib Mikhail, a former professor of homiletics from the Faith Mission Bible College in Cairo, Egypt, states that one reason why people are forced to embrace Islam is because of the poverty they will assuredly find themselves in if they do not. “If you don’t embrace Islam you may not find a job; you may not find an apartment, and you’ll be in financial trouble” [4].  Non-Muslims, particularly Christians and Jews, living in Muslim-dominated countries are finding themselves subjected to an ever increasing wave of discrimination, oppression and persecution at the hands of the Ummah (Islamic Community).  Even today a Christian in a Muslim country is often treated as a second-class citizen or worse, unable to serve in the military or police, many cannot work or own a business, or even find a place to live. They cannot own a weapon to defend themselves, nor can they testify against a Muslim in court, etc. etc. etc. [5].  And this type of treatment is getting worse, not better. (Update: Read here to find out just how much worse this has become in 2011 alone).

According to NIFCON (Network for Inter Faith Concerns) in Iraq, for example, minorities have faced a tremendous crisis due to their religious identity and are increasingly becoming targets of unprecedented terror. Canon Andrew White, vicar of St. George’s Anglican Church in Bagdad and head of the Foundation for Reconciliation and Reconstruction in the Middle East, testified as a witness in 2007 at a hearing that Christians, in particular, “are being disproportionately targeted” and many Christians are being threatened either to convert to Islam or face execution [6].  In fact, in April 2011, “an Iraqi Muslim scholar issued a fatwa that, among other barbarities, asserts that ‘it is permissible to spill the blood of Iraqi Christians.’ … Among other atrocities, beheading and crucifying Christians are not irregular occurrences; messages saying ‘you Christian dogs, leave or die,’ are typical. Islamists see the church as an ‘obscene nest of pagans’ and threaten to ‘exterminate Iraqi Christians.'” [7].

Think about this very carefully. According to the Greek text of Revelation 13:17-18 it isn’t just someone who hasn’t received the “Mark of the Beast” on the right hand or forehead that cannot buy or sell. In order to buy or sell they must have the Mark of the Beast *or* the name of the Beast *or* the number of its name. In other words, those able to buy or sell are counted among the number of they who submit to the authority of the Beast empire or kingdom, not because they have been physically marked in the right hand or forehead for all to see, but because they are considered one of them ideologically or culturally or religiously in speech and practise. Consider these recent new stories, for instance:

And these are simply some of the incidents that we know about.

On one hand, while many are coming face to face with the threat of death for not converting to Islam, other Christians elsewhere are threatened to convert in other ways that, for some, make life extremely difficult.  In many Islamic nations, for instance, everyone must be given an ID card and this ID card specifies what religion you are, such as “M” for Muslim or “C” for Christian or “J” for Jew.  For example, “Christian converts and members of minority religions suffer daily discrimination in Egypt, which restricts their access to work, education, travel and healthcare… Every Egyptian over 16 years old must have an ID card which mentions religious belief”. In fact, “an ID card is required for the most basic needs in Egypt — to open a bank account, get a driver’s licence, obtain a pension cheque, enrol at school, get a job, and even for childhood immunisations…” Some Muslims will convert to another faith other than Christianity, but “Muslims who convert to Christianity account for many more and their treatment is often harsher as they are considered to be apostates, which some Muslims see as punishable by death” [8].  And now, since the fall of Hosni Mubarak and the rise of the ‘Egyptian Revolution,’ the situation has worsened dramatically for Jews and Christians.  This is where Islamic supremacy veiled in a cloak of ‘democracy’ will take you in a country where Islam is the overwhelming, dominant religion.  It’s like Sunni and Shia.  It’s like iron and clay.  Democracy and Islamism will never fully mix.

These sort of conditions exist for Jews and Christians all throughout North Africa, the Middle East and elsewhere where Islam dominates or seeks domination, from the Ivory Coast to Nigeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, TunisiaGaza, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Pakistan, Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia, The Maldives, Bangladesh and others.

When we begin to understand the dire social and economic conditions that Christians are increasingly facing in Islamic nations we then begin to understand that they who will not be able to buy or sell, or are targeted for execution, are those Christians that refuse to submit to Islam both in mind (forehead) and in deed (right hand) yet are forced to remain in Islamic nations during the rise of the Beast. How can a non-Muslim “infidel” — who is often threatened with death — buy or sell if they are not permitted to work and earn money, if they are not granted permits to open a business, if the superior Muslim will refuse to sell to the inferior “dhimmi”?  As bad as this situation is now, it is only going to get worse.

Chi-Xi-Stigma — In The Name of Allah?

Revelation 13:18, “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.”

Someone asked me once if I believed Walid Shoebat’s theory regarding Revelation 13:18 and “666”. Shoebat says that when he first saw the Greek symbols that are often translated as “666” he immediately recognized that the Greek text closely resembled the Arabic text for “Bismillah”, which translates to “In The Name Of Allah.” His theory is interesting and is something to consider.  At the very least, it is prudent to have an open mind to this position, especially given the likelihood that the Mark of the Beast is, in some way, directly related to Islam.   Mr. Shoebat and Chuck Missler speak about this possible aspect of chi-xi-stigma here in the following two videos, respectively:

Sunan Ibn Majah 2763, “The Messenger of Allah [Mohammed] said: ‘Whoever meets Allah with no mark on him (as a result of fighting) in His cause, he will meet Him with deficiency.”

Although I believe that the Mark of the Beast is primarily a spiritual designator, much like the mark of Christ that is upon the foreheads of the elect, that is not to say, however, that there cannot or will not at times also be a physical indicator that could identify the spiritual designation.  In addition to the “battle marks” received while waging Jihad or the “zebibah” (prayer mark) on the foreheads of many devout Muslims, Jihadists typically wear the “Bismallah” on the forehead and on the right arm, which itself is significant because the Greek word translated as “right hand” is dexios which not only means the right hand, but also the right side (the right hand side). In fact, even the Hebrew word “yad” means both hand and arm [7].

Exegetically and hermeneutically, the “number” (arithmos) of the beast does not necessitate the use of mathematics or gammatria to “reckon” (understand) what it is, something that many prophecy teachers often fall into. The word “arithmos” is used a total of 18 times in the NT, and aside from Rev 5:11 when John refers to the number of living beings he witnesses around the throne of God, every other time “arithmos” is used it is always referring to a group of people. This is significant because it therefore means that the Greek text is better understood as “the multitude of the beast: for it is the multitude of a man.” But what multitude of people would that be and what man are they all following? There is nothing in the text telling us that the man referred to here must be someone alive at that specific time or an end-of-days Antichrist. So what and who is John the Revelator referring to? Significantly, as noted above, “chi-xi-stigma” (often translated as “666”) closely resembles the Arabic Bismallah, which translates to “In The Name Of Allah”. In order to convert to “Allah’s” religion, however, one must recite the Islamic statement of faith, called the Shahada, by declaring that “There is no god but Allah, and MOHAMMED is his messenger.” Without Christ, there can be no Christianity. Likewise, without Mohammed, there can be no Islam.

Think about it.

One of the reasons why Muslims hate Christianity is because Christianity associates Jesus with God, making Jesus a co-equal partner with the Almighty. According to Islam, this is called “shirk” and is an unpardonable sin that “Allah” will never forgive. The truth of the matter, however, is that Islam itself also associates the “prophet” Mohammed — whom Muslims claim to be the most “perfect man” to ever walk the face of the earth — with “Allah” himself. On one hand, Islam teaches that “Allah” has no partners, but then contradicts itself by teaching that someone cannot become a Muslim unless they acknowledge that “There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger” per the Shahada. Unless one acknowledges Mohammed they cannot become a Muslim. In Islam, a Muslim’s “salvation” is therefore entirely determined by their obedience and devotion to Mohammed, effectively elevating the “prophet” of Islam to the same co-equal status of Islam’s own deity. To acknowledge “Allah” is not enough. You MUST acknowledge the “perfect man” Mohammed as well, and failure to do so means that they cannot be counted as part of the Ummah of Islam (Islamic community or nation).

The multitude of the Beast, which is the multitude of a man, are those who receive the “Mark of the Beast” upon their “foreheads” and are destined for destruction. This is the direct antithesis to the “great multitude” of Rev 7 and 14, which is the multitude of the Lamb that receives the seal of God upon their “foreheads” (Rev 7:3, 14:1) and are destined for redemption (cf Eph 4:30). One multitude is lost and separated from Christ forever (Rev 14:11), the other is saved and received unto Christ (Rev 7:15-17, 19:6-9, 22:2-5) to be with Him always. In light of what we have just learned, it therefore stands to reason that “the multitude of a man” is not referring to an eschatonic Antichrist, but rather to Mohammed — the founder and “prophet” of Islam — and those who follow him whose teachings even today continues to force all those under Islamic rule to worship “Allah” who should otherwise be killed if they refuse.

Revelation 13:15, “The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.”

Knowing that the mark of Christ includes a name upon the seal, it therefore makes sense that the Mark of the Beast could also have a name upon its seal as well. If it is plausible that what John saw was Arabic for “In The Name of Allah” for those who worship the Beast — the antithesis of those who worship God and are sealed with the name of Christ written on their foreheads — then in stark contrast those who worship the Beast and follow the religion of Mohammed could have the name of “Allah” upon theirs, and there would be no doubt about who belongs to who. Interestingly enough, the Qur’an itself at times emphasizes the significance of a Muslim’s forehead being marked during the worship of “Allah” — a mark that is required in order to be saved from hellfire per the Hadith — and how their works will be judged by what is in their right hand on the Day of Judgment:

Qur’an Sura 48:29, “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers … The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration …”

Qur’an Sura 18:49, “And the Book (one’s Record) will be placed (in the right hand for a believer in the Oneness of Allah, and in the left hand for a disbeliever in the Oneness of Allah) …”

Qur’an Sura 69:19, “Then, as for him who is given his record in his right hand, he will say: Take, read my book!”

Qur’an Sura 57:12, “On that day [of judgement] you will see the faithful men and the faithful women [Muslims] — their light running before them and on their right hand …”

Needless to say, anyone standing before God with a “mark” on their foreheads other than the seal of Christ will face eternal damnation when the books recording what they had done are opened:

Revelation 20:12, 15, “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books … Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 14:11, “And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

To Whom Do You Belong?

Revelation 22:3-4, “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.” (See also Rev 14:1).

The Ekklesia is “Jerusalem” — the Bride of Christ — and is identified with the kingdom of God. The Ummah is “Mecca” — the “Whore of Babylon” — and is identified with the kingdom of the Beast. It is no secret that al-Qaeda and all like-minded Sunni and Shia terror organizations despise the “apostate” kingdom of Saud, not to mention Iran — a state-sponsor of terror — that is well on its way to obtaining nuclear weapons. These are they who “hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire” (Rev 17:16). The “Whore of Babylon” has spread radical Islamic ideology throughout the earth and the Beast that she has ridden throughout the centuries will soon turn on her to devour the hand that fed it.

New insights into Scripture and a review of developments being witnessed on a near daily basis in the Muslim world has lead a growing number of Christians to now recognize that Islam is the religious system of the Last Day’s Antichrist [be it a man or a system] and ideology of the Beast. It is the Adversary’s aim to corrupt and destroy anything that God has created, and this “curse” [alah] is his weapon of mass destruction.  There should be no doubt today that we are in the last of the Last Days and as we can see every day in the media, the Judeo-Christian West is being bombarded by the steadily encroaching tentacles of Sharia influence as Islamists take advantage of the West’s accommodating naivete and political correctness by using and abusing the very same democratic freedoms they seek to destroy.  While seeking the destruction of the West from within, it is getting increasingly dire for Jews and Christians in the Islamic world. The Beast of this Islamic Empire is coalescing. It is gaining in strength militarily. The Islamist ideology espoused by Al Qaeda and its ilk has metastasized since 9/11 throughout the Muslim world and is seeking to force as many non-Muslims as possible into Islamic submission.  Within this kingdom, laws are being enforced or implemented in accordance to Sharia Law to produce your ID card and/or prove you are Muslim in order to buy or sell. If anyone wants to have any semblance of a life they will be forced to convert to Islam if they have not already done so. It may even get to the point where one will be unable to obtain an ID card if they are not Muslim. Want a job? Prove you’re a Muslim. Want a bank account? Prove you’re a Muslim. Want a credit card? A business? A place to live? Prove that you are a Muslim. As radicalization continues to take hold it will also get to the point where either you convert, or you are killed.  Indeed, many areas are already at this point today.

Revised 2/10/2015
  1. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    03/07/2012 at 10:24 AM

    A. S, “There is some teaching that the elect is not referring to the church, the church and the elect are two different groups of people, the elect being the jews who come out of the tribulation and do not accept the mark.”

    Where do you find this in Scripture? In order to believe this, you have to first assume a pre-trib rapture. I’d encourage you to watch the Walter Martin video, because he shows why pre-tribism is circular reasoning, which is illogical. God is not illogical.

    Let’s see what the Bible says about who the elect are:

    Titus 1:1, “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect (eklektos G1588) and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness …”

    Col 3:12, “Therefore, as the elect (eklektos G1588) of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering …”

    1 Pet 1:1-2, “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect (eklektos G1588) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.”

    1 Pet 2:9, “But you are a chosen (eklektos G1588) people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.”

    As Christians, we are called the elect. Please show me in Scripture where it says that the elect is not referring to the Church.

    A. S, “Which means the rapture is parts. And again, raptured to where at the end of tribulation, Jesus is not going back to heaven, but setting up his kingdom on earth for the thousand year reign, it says he is coming with is saints, where are the saints coming from ?”

    Let’s see what Scripture says. Paul says that when Christ descends, the dead in Christ are resurrected to Christ and then we will be caught up to meet them in the air (1 Thess 4:16-17). Now here’s what you haven’t been told. The word “meet” is the Greek word “apantesis”, and this word only occurs here and in three other places. In Vocabulary of the Greek Testament by G. Milligan and James Hope Moulton, “The word apantesis seems to have been a kind of official welcome of a newly arriving dignitary – a usage which accords excellently with its NT usage.” And indeed it does! In Matthew 25:1,6 it describes the virgins going out to meet the bridegroom, to escort him back into the house. In Acts 28:14-16 it is used to describe brethren from Rome coming out to Appii Foru, to meet Paul and his company, and then escort them back to Rome. In each example of “apantesis”, the escort back is immediate. We don’t have them going out to meet the subject, then going to where the subject came from for days, weeks or years, and then escorting the subject back. That was not the custom. The subject who was coming is met by those who are already at his destination. And what is His destination? Where we are — earth. When Christ comes back to Earth, we will go out to meet him, and where ever He goes, we go, and He is going to Jerusalem to set His feet upon the Mount of Olives.

    Zech 14:4-5, “And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, [Making] a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee [through] My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, [And] all the saints with You.

    What is Scripture saying? It is saying that we are not removed to conveniently go to Heaven. Those of us who are alive and remain (the Greek word means those who survive) are transformed from corruptible to incorruptible, and we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air per the “apantesis”, which means that we immediately escort Him back to earth — ie. Jerusalem — which is consistent with its usage in each of the other verses of Scripture. The pre-trib position, however, suddenly changes the intended meaning of the word. Instead of us escorting Jesus back to Earth immediately for His Second Coming, the pre-trib position has us conveniently going to Heaven instead, which the text does not say anywhere, at any place, at any time.

    In Greek culture the word “apantesis” had a technical meaning to describe the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who had gone out from the city for this purpose and would then be ceremonially escorted back into the city. Apantesis was often used to suggest the meeting of a dignitary or king, a famous person, describing people rushing to meet the one who was coming. For instance, when a Roman emperor approached a city, the leading citizens went out to welcome him and had the honor of processing into the city with him. This whole event was described as the “apantesis.”

    Apantesis from apantáo from apó = from + antáo = to come opposite to, to meet especially to meet face to face describes a meeting especially a meeting of two who are coming from different directions.

    The Early Church Father John Chrysostom (347-407) comments on this passage by saying the following: “If he (Christ) is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge…

    The text teaches a post-trib understanding, not a pre-trib understanding.

    A. S, “I don’lt care how many scriptures are twisted to support a post “trib” rapture it just makes no logical sense and serves no purpose”

    It is not the post-trib position that distorts the text and its intent. Pre-tribism ignores or changes the meaning of words such as “eklektos” and “apantesis” and “ekklesia” and “epiphaneia” and “protos” and “orge”. Pre-tribism fails to take into account the original Greek, it fails to understand the correlation of Paul’s teaching on the gathering and Christ’s teaching on the gathering, it fails to acknowledge the Semitic styling of Revelation, it even fails to consider other key details given by Peter and John. The list goes on.

    A. S, “what are you escaping at the end ?”

    We are escaping the “orge” wrath of God on the Day of the Lord. This is what we are promised to be delivered from. This is what we are not appointed to. But pre-tribism fails to consider the fact that the “orge” wrath of God is only found in a post-trib context in Revelation. Read more here to find out what you haven’t been told about the original Greek.

    A. S, “The rapture and Second coming are separate.”

    The only way to come to that conclusion is to first assume that pre-tribism is true. Paul doesn’t teach it. Jesus doesn’t teach it. Peter doesn’t teach it. Even John doesn’t teach it, evidenced by the fact that he places the First Resurrection at the end of the tribulation.

    Look at what Paul says:

    1 Thess 4:15-17, “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

    Paul is very careful to show us that the dead in Christ are resurrected first, and then we are caught up with them. The next question we should then ask is when does this resurrection happen? John tells us in Revelation:

    Revelation 20:4-5, “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years… This [is] the first resurrection.”

    The dead in Christ that rise first are caught up in the First Resurrection, which is after the tribulation according to John in Rev 20:4-5. Now think about the following very carefully: If the First Resurrection is after the tribulation then there can be no resurrection before the tribulation, and if there is no resurrection before the tribulation then there is therefore no rapture before the tribulation. It is impossible. According to Scripture, the rapture can only happen after tribulation.

    If we accept the plain and straight-forward teaching of the text, this absolutely destroys pre-tribism. The only way for pre-trib teachers to get around this dilemma is to somehow contend that there are “phases” to the First Resurrection, but when we draw that suggestion out to its logical conclusion it is essentially stating that the rapture takes place before the First Resurrection is even fully completed, yet Scripture is clear that the dead in Christ rise first, and then we who are alive and remain will be caught up. According to Revelation 20:4 there are obviously still those who are dead in Christ at the end of the tribulation who will be raised in the First Resurrection.

    The idea of a pre-trib rapture is forced in the text, when it is nowhere in the text at all. It is assumed to be correct, and pre-trib teachers are guilty of interpreting Scripture to conform to their understanding, instead of allowing their understanding to conform to Scripture.

    Nickelsaver, “So that all the church age saints can return with the LORD at the Second coming”

    That is already fulfilled at the “apantesis” in a post-trib rapture (see above). Pre-tribism still fails to address Willard’s question.

    Like

    • Mike L.'s avatar
      Mike L.
      03/07/2012 at 9:45 PM

      This is an excellent post. I have read your answers to the pretrib view multiple times and I admit they appear to be rock solid and are very compelling. I think these are the absolute best posttrib writings I have read. Usually anything I read about the posttrib position was always from pretrib teachers and why posttrib was wrong. But now I am starting to see why it could be right. Also thanks for putting up the Martin sermon. I liked his question to Hal Lindsay too as well as the question to the atheist professor.

      Like

    • John Jacob Jingleheimersmith's avatar
      John Jacob Jingleheimersmith
      04/25/2012 at 12:47 AM

      Man ICA, this is good stuff. I am post-trib, pre-wrath too. I need to look into some of the definitions in this. Like the guy below said this is probably the best explanation of post trib ever. Kudos. JJ JHS

      Like

  2. A. S's avatar
    A. S
    03/07/2012 at 7:52 PM

    Steve :
    If Islam has nothing to do with the Beast, then why did the Holy spirit deny people to preach Christianity in Asia in Paul’s time? Why did God let it spread all over the world to be the only Christianity rival? Isn’t there an image in Mecca (the Land of Shinar) which all islamists must bow down to (Remember the basket with the harlot whose base was to be established in the land of Shinar?

    Asia ? Islam comes from the Arabic nations, not Asia. And if God prevented the Gospel from being preached anywhere and allowed other religions like Islam to grow, then they are not accountable because God willed it. The more I hear here, the more insane this is all starting to sound. Oh Im sure I will be flooded with responses, but it’s going to sound more insane the more you try to defend it.

    Like

    • ICA's avatar
      ICA
      03/07/2012 at 7:59 PM

      Acts 16:6, “Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia.”

      “Asia does not refer to the Far East as we know it today. It refers to the Roman Province of Asia Minor, which is modern day Turkey.” Read more.

      It was not then in God’s timing for Paul to preach the Gospel in the region of modern day Turkey. Interestingly, Jesus said that this is “where Satan’s throne is” and “where Satan dwells” in Revelation 2:13. There is more happening in this region than you think …

      Like

      • A. S's avatar
        A. S
        03/07/2012 at 8:18 PM

        I see nothing in those scriptures to support the theory you are setting out about Islam. Islam did not exist yet first of all, and everything else being said about these passages is merely speculation born of reading things into it that aren’t actually being said.

        Like

        • ICA's avatar
          ICA
          03/07/2012 at 8:38 PM

          Those verses are not proof texts directly supporting the Islamic paradigm. They simply demonstrate that there is more going on spiritually in the Middle East than meets the eye. (cf. Daniel 10:13-21). The Scriptures that support the Islamic paradigm are laid out in this Mark of the Beast article, as well as the Revelation 13 commentary and People of the Prince article. They go along with the Gog-Magog and One-World Government articles. Remember, “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little” (Isaiah 28:10).

          Like

  3. Unknown's avatar
    Anonymous
    03/09/2012 at 1:18 PM

    Like

    • Unknown's avatar
      kurtjorg
      03/09/2012 at 3:25 PM

      That was excellent.

      Like

  4. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    03/09/2012 at 3:44 PM

    Love the music on this video: “Post Tribulation Rapture – Who will Populate The Millennium?”

    God is good …

    Like

  5. 03/09/2012 at 10:36 PM

    Great video!

    It ain’t 7 years between the rapture and the judgment, or even 3-1/2–my theory: Yeshua returns for the saints on Rosh Hashanah, the wrath of God is poured out for the next 10 days, which is also a short window of repentance for the world, and judgment occurs on Yom Kippur.

    Sukkot = Yahoo!!!

    Like

  6. 03/09/2012 at 11:43 PM

    Last sentence of that link:

    “The Shabbat that occurs in this period is known as Shabbat Shuvah (the Sabbath of Return). This is considered a rather important Shabbat.”

    I’d say.

    Like

  7. John Jacob Jingleheimersmith's avatar
    John Jacob Jingleheimersmith
    03/26/2012 at 2:00 AM

    So we meet again KJ. Hahahaha.

    Hey ICA, good stuff – the beginning of your study I have also studied a few years ago. Like the words ‘oth’ and ‘xaragma’ and their relevance in other scripture. (As I mentioned in the other areas of this blog, I love languages and really try to get to the truest meaning of certain words, their context too.)

    Again, the mega-church people had scowled when I mentioned these references a few years ago. Guess what the next step, run me out of there and stop studying Revelation.

    Kudos on a very decently informative blog. Thanksya’ JJJHS

    Like

  8. 03/26/2012 at 10:31 AM

    I have to give to you its an interesting read… I just there was a lot less stretching of the facts sometimes outright distortions. Makes for a good story but if your point is principled then you definitely need to let the facts get in the way…(or at least state some type of ambivalence :)

    Like

  9. good4u's avatar
    good4u
    03/26/2012 at 11:42 PM

    I believe this is EXACTLY what Scripture is clearly stating to the reader and the context of the geo-political system fits like watching modern news. Truly, the Book of Revelation is becoming clearer and clearer and we have no excuse not to study it and prepare our church congregations. Shame on us if we do not.

    Like

  10. Willard's avatar
    Willard
    03/30/2012 at 3:21 PM

    Who will control it – A Cashless Society May Be Closer Than Most People Would Ever Dare To Imagine

    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/a-cashless-society-may-be-closer-than-most-people-would-ever-dare-to-imagine

    Like

  11. 04/07/2012 at 4:56 PM

    Great information keep it up.

    Like

  12. joy's avatar
    joy
    04/22/2012 at 5:47 PM

    all i know is: Praise God I won’t be here to find out!! HalleluJAH and Amen,

    Like

  13. JJ JHS's avatar
    JJ JHS
    04/22/2012 at 6:04 PM

    ICA, the above comment grieves me tremendously. It is not necessarily the comment but the mentality and the mentality is spreading. In this time we should be girding our spiritual loins, as it is IMO becoming harder and harder to remain faithful in every area of life, to Jesus. With the I’ll-be-outta-here mentality the availability to suffer just isn’t there, preparation for persecution is nil. It is so dangerous! – We must weigh the cost of being disciples yet pre-trib declares there is no cost; just gum drops and unicorns from the skybox.

    Also ICA, something I have noticed is that if the scriptures in question used to support pre-trib are asked to be discussed, the topic gets changed immediately then ‘it’ll all work out’ or ‘we don’t need to divide’ is said. Why? We can talk about many things just not that. I have noticed also that if the pre-trib substantiation verses are ignored well so are other issues. By avoiding the topic and scripture we are not being like the Bereans but people who accept what we are told at face value sans independent study. *sad face*

    JJJHS

    Like

  14. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    04/22/2012 at 6:15 PM

    joy, “all i know is: Praise God I won’t be here to find out!! HalleluJAH and Amen”

    Hi joy, it might be beneficial to read through the last two or three pages of the comments. I really do recommend it. We are already here while so many Christians are being beheaded and killed in numerous other ways for the faith of Jesus. Just because it hasn’t reached our shores yet to the extent that we’re seeing in North Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia does not mean that we will not see Christian persecution at the hands of Muslims in some way, shape or form in North America.

    JJ JHS, “I have noticed also that if the pre-trib substantiation verses are ignored well so are other issues. By avoiding the topic and scripture we are not being like the Bereans but people who accept what we are told at face value sans independent study.”

    Which is why pre-tribism is a topic that I will always discuss when the need arises. Even Joel Richardson felt the need to discuss this topic recently. We are given a mandate in Scripture to study the Scriptures, and that includes showing why a 19th century doctrine such as pre-tribism is false with virtually no basis in Scripture. Fortunately, while many still cling to this teaching, there are also many who are beginning to abandon it. I expect this trend to continue.

    Like

    • John Jacob Jingleheimersmith's avatar
      John Jacob Jingleheimersmith
      04/23/2012 at 3:53 AM

      ICA, Thanks for the reply and the link to Joel’s site. I read his antichrist book (but do not have it anymore since giving it to a Jewish friend from South America); it is a really good read. What is also interesting is the fact that he presents the AC as an islamic characature as opposed to the Israelite or even Roman personage of the AC. PS I know it is presented as islamic here too. Jacob Prasch had some interesting rebuttals pertaining to Joel’s thesis. I am not taking sides either way since many points can be made and I respect you ICA, Joel, Jacob, Steven and many others. I believe it is GREAT that this subject is being examined closely. As this eschatological ‘stuff’ unfolds we will be able to recognize – as we are – more attributes of the times for what they are and gain a greater sense of position in time. Either way it is clear that we will suffer, although the skybox would be nice.

      JJ JHS, God bless you in the name above all names Jesus the Christ.

      Like

  15. vick musi's avatar
    vick musi
    04/28/2012 at 9:44 AM

    the Islamic world along with some BRICS nations will soon establish their own
    SWIFT Code system as the London-NYC (North Atlantic) financial empire suffers from the demise of the Petro-Dollar, and the falling from grace of the USD as the global Reseve Currency.
    this Islamic led banker ID code will be recognized as the ‘Mark/Number’ of the Beast.
    at least it’s possible to my worldview

    Like

  16. bn's avatar
    bn
    05/02/2012 at 2:36 AM

    I believe there are two aspects to the Mark… one spiritual, one physical/commercial… to see straight-forward, hard-to-deny, evidence as to the actual location of THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST please watch this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AfBklqj1Ew&feature=plcp

    Also check out THE SPIRITUAL MARK OF THE BEAST SERIES at this link

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUs7G4HEDBU&list=PL114E62EF3A351826&index=1&feature=plpp_video

    Like

  17. Judi's avatar
    Judi
    05/02/2012 at 4:21 PM

    Matthew 24:40-41 describes two men in the field and two women at the mill “one will be taken and the other left” in both verses. Those who do not believe in the “rapture” have to ignore these verses. Also, verse 37 says “as in the days of Noah…”. I believe the story of Noah at the world’s first destruction by water and Sodom and Gomorrah’s destruction speak to God’s taking His own (believers in Jesus Christ as Savior) to safety. I realize there are Christians who may suffer and be killed at the present time. However, Revelations describes the total destruction of everything we know as earth. It is also God’s judgement and wrath on an unbelieving world. We as believers are not under condemnation or God’s wrath. So, it doesn’t make sense that we suffer along beside the unbelievers when God destroys earth for the final time with fire. Somehow God will protect His own which I believe is the Rapture. Israel as a nation still does not believe Jesus is Lord. There are Christian Jews who will be raptured also. But, the rest of Israel will come to a believing faith during the Tribulation.

    Like

    • Mishael's avatar
      Mishael
      05/02/2012 at 7:33 PM

      Don’t forget, Judi, that the Bible says numerous times that the saints, those who hold to the testimony of Jesus (in other words, Christians), will be persecuted during the last days – not facing the wrath of God but indeed facing the wrath of Satan. (Matthew 24:40-41 does not prove a pre-tribulation rapture in particular.)

      I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom… The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress His saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
      (Daniel 7:20-22, 24-25)

      When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach…Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
      (Revelation 12:13-14, 17)

      The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander His name and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
      (Revelation 13:5-7)

      I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
      (Revelation 20:4)

      And, of course, Jesus’ own words to His followers (not meant for the nation of Israel but for the body of Christ):

      Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
      (Matthew 24:9-14)

      Like

  18. Unknown's avatar
    Anonymous
    05/19/2012 at 4:17 PM

    Da 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time

    http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-4231126,00.html

    Like

  19. Scotty D's avatar
    Scotty D
    05/29/2012 at 1:43 PM

    There are none so blind as American Christians (of which I’m one). Let me encourage us to look into some things. First, where did Islam come from 1400 years ago? Research it’s connections to the Roman Catholic Church. Second, where did the RCC come from? Hint… The Sanhedrin didn’t just vanish. Third, who is the State of Israel vs the Biblical people of Yisra’el (the diaspora, Judah & Ephraim). The State of Isreal is totally secular and not a theocracy as most would assume, and the term Jew is ambiguous at best in the Biblical sense. We have been incredibly lazy with our faith and drunk on what we thought was grace.

    Let me help you with the punch line… America is The Whore who sits in the Babylonian Beast and carries The Mark (yes, that includes her churches). Answer the above questions to see how we got into this predicament and be prepared to take an inventory of your belief system. A couple more hints… The Creator despises the destruction of His name and the name of the Messiah. Check the third commandment and numerous other places in Scripture. Second, He marks His people with His Sabbath.

    ps. There is not a pre-trib rapture (that theology was designed in the 1800’s). But if you insist on one, the false Messiah will be providing one for those who are looking for the name Jesus Christ to appear. But since that was never the Messiah’s name, that train is heading in a bad direction.

    Like

  20. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    05/29/2012 at 2:38 PM

    Hi Scotty, thank you for your comment. Islam came out of the polytheistic Babylonian religion that existed prior to John, not out of the Roman Catholic Church. I’d prefer to stick with Scripture instead of relying on esoteric stitchings with the Roman Catholic Church. Zechariah provides the locality from which the house of the “Whore of Babylon” is built. The last time I checked, America wasn’t located in the land of Babylonia. Nor was it directly tied into the curse (“alah”). Nor was it “drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.” In my view, the “Whore of Babylon” is simply the antithesis to “Bride of Christ”:

    * Yahweh has the Ekklesia.
    * Allah has the Ummah.

    * Yahweh’s Ekklesia is “as a bride adorned for her husband” and filled with “the glory of God”.
    * Allah’s Ummah is a harlot “decked with gold and precious stones and pearls” filled with abominations.

    * Yahweh has given the Ekklesia His Word, the Bible.
    * Allah has given the Ummah its corruption, the Qur’an.

    * Yahweh’s Ekklesia is the multitude of the Lamb, whom they follow.
    * Allah’s Ummah is the multitude of a man (the “prophet Muhammed”), whom they follow.

    * Yahweh’s Ekklesia comes out of Great Tribulation.
    * Allah’s Ummah is responsible for it.

    * Yahweh’s Ekklesia receives the seal of God upon their foreheads and are redeemed.
    * Allah’s Ummah receives the Mark of the Beast upon their foreheads and are condemned.

    * Yahweh’s Ekklesia will be lead to springs of living waters.
    * Allah’s Ummah will drink of the wine of the wrath of God.

    If America is the “Whore of Babylon”, as you believe, then why do you still live there (Rev 18:4)?

    Like

    • Scotty D's avatar
      Scotty D
      05/29/2012 at 5:14 PM

      Good thoughts ICA, but it is important for “Christians” to realize that every religion came out of the polytheistic middle east, us included. The issue for each of us is how much baggage are we carrying from our roots. For Christians it is things like the pagan-born observances Good Friday, Easter, Christmas, etc as well as the pagan titles like god, lord, christ that should be warnings to us that we did not escape lilly white from the sins of our fathers. Our replacement theology is very dangerous to our relationship with YHWH and He loaths it.

      Regarding the whore and the Babylonian SYSTEM, (dont make the location literal when everything else around it is symbolic) it is difficult, if not impossible, to read Revelation 17 and 18 and put that on Islam. Islam does not sit on many waters (races). Islam is not a master of diverse commerce like America. The world is drunk on America’s cup and no one else’s. Islam was never a lamb and does not have the military power like America to speak like a dragon. It goes on and on.

      Make no mistake, Islam is programmed as the villain and will be an instrument of our destruction as they almost were during the Crusades. Simply put, we have been scripted by the evil ones as the protagonist and Islam as the antagonist. Neither position is honorable to the Creator and both contain the specific deceptions necessary to ensure maximum separation from the Creator for all parties, in other words, the highest possible body count in hell. Strap C4 all over yourself or turn a blind eye to “preemptive” air strikes that you pay for with your tax dollars, sin has no degrees.

      Why do I still live here? Since Babylon is a system and not a location, then the solution is not to physically leave, but to “come out of” the system.

      Like

    • Unknown's avatar
      JJJHS aka Bro-dious
      05/29/2012 at 5:40 PM

      ICA: just to add to your comment, ramadan was being celebrated via fasting when MHMD went to the cave and then received his first encounter ( the choking incident at Hira) with an angel. Soooooo, this means ramadan was a celebration previous to the formalized religion then incorporated.

      Q: If the the Ka’baa was a pagan shrine at the time of MHMD then MHMD was ordered to cleanse the land of pagan practices, why was a celebration like ramadan kept? And the ka’baa itself. etc.etc…

      Ramadan had nothing to do with RCC. Where does all this weird theory come from?

      It also stemmed from other previous practices as well. Too many to list. It is interesting that in David’s time, David mentioned the Ishmaelites hating the God of Israel.

      Q: So how could God be leading Solomon and David concurrently (at that time 3000 yrs ago) but God was alleged to be giving them different commads as listed in the Q’ran?

      A: So according to the crescent persuasion, the great prophets were muslims. Solomon and David are on the list. At that time David wrote that the Ishamelites hate the God of Israel. But the crescent persuasion syasy they were off the crescent persuasion. Got a problem here Houston.

      Like

  21. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    05/29/2012 at 6:04 PM

    Hi Scotty, Judaism and Christianity have always been monotheistic and are completely separate from the paganism of Babylon. Some practices that we have today may have originated from pagan practices, but they have been “born again” for lack of a better term to honor YHWH and His Messiah. They do not reflect the “old man” or the pagan religion, but rather the “new man” and his Savior. Although they are not necessary, they can be useful in spreading the Gospel. If even one is brought to YHWH through the celebration of Easter or Christmas, are they loathed by their Savior? If our Father can use a “dumb donkey” to get the message across (2 Pet 2:16), He can use anything that He desires.

    While the “Whore of Babylon” may be a system symbolically in Revelation, Zechariah is clear that this system sprouts up from a specific area geographically. There is no question in this regard that the “Whore of Babylon” (confusion) comes from the land of Babylonia (Shinar).

    Moreover, Islam does indeed sit on many waters. Muslims are not confined to the Arab race only. In addition to Arabs there are Persians, Africans, Caucasians, Asians as well and any subgroups within them. It is a complete system, not just religious, but one that dictates how people are to conduct themselves in political, financial, and social settings etc. whereby all laws are governed by the requirements of their prophet. And let us not forget the fact that the abundance of the world’s oil wealth is currently under Muslim lands. Without their oil, commerce is just one of many things that would come to a grinding halt.

    America is not drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus, but Islam is. In fact, the entire world is themselves drunk with the spiritual adulteries of Islam and bends over backwards with the backdrop of political correctness to accommodate her in virtually every venue of life. Islam even declares that it is the only way to God, effectively positioning itself in place of and against the Lamb of God, our Prince of Peace, by calling itself the “religion of peace” while continuing to grow in might and influence as we speak, and is given its power by the Dragon, Satan. (The name “Lucifer” in Hebrew is “heylel”. The Arabic equivalent is the word “hilal”, which means “crescent moon”, the symbol of Islam). The list goes on and on …

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    • Scotty D's avatar
      Scotty D
      05/29/2012 at 6:51 PM

      The First and Third Commndments (not to mention the Second) do serious damage to your argument that the Creator needs to recycle pagan practices to further His Kingdom. None of these practices and names should be set before His face according to Him. Couple that with the ruin (Hebrew “shiv”) of His name in Scripture some 7000 times! and that is a strong reason to find out who did this and what were their motives. Interestingly enough, the rabbis of that era were also taking their own approach to blotting out The Name by labeling it as ineffable. Why?

      What I am offering is that Islam would have been more of a speck had Judaism and Christianity not been staring through a log for the past 1400 years. Our bias and global actions have grown Islam faster than anything else could have. Our Messiah taught us better.

      ps. The RCC has murdered more Saints throughout history than Islam could ever imagine killing. You and I just have a bias for what defines a Saint because we want to make sure it includes us.

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      • Unknown's avatar
        JJJHS aka Bro-dious
        05/29/2012 at 7:19 PM

        Hey Scott, it’s not only of that day. I can read and write Hebrew (used to be better) and arabic (used to be better). The blotting out is even in some hebrew bible versions. Are you familiar with the name Elokim? or YKVH? or how about just plain HaShem? I’ll reply more in a sec..

        Like

    • Unknown's avatar
      Anonymous
      05/29/2012 at 7:52 PM

      Rome sits on 7 hills, persia does not, drunk with the blood of martyrs and saints, catholicism prides itself on martyrdom and it’s canonized saints, it has dealings with all the kings and kingdoms of the earth and it’s leaders respected and followed in a way Islam is not. It owns treasures such as artwork, gold, jewels and lands…It is at the heart of what will be a revived roman empire. Do some research on the pope and his connections to the free masons and illuminati.

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      • ICA's avatar
        ICA
        05/29/2012 at 8:10 PM

        The hills aren’t referring to literal hills (they’re kingdoms), but if we’re going to interpret them as literal hills, then here is a fact that shouldn’t be missed:

        Mecca is a city in the South West part of the present Saudi Arabia, not far away from the Red sea. Centuries before the rise of Islam, Mecca was serving as the main religious, cultural and commercial center for all of the Arabic tribes. An amazing detail about the city is that it is surrounded by seven hills.” Read more.

        The “Whore of Babylon” is not Persia, nor is it America. It is Saudi Arabia — the spiritual birthplace of Islam. I don’t see Catholics waging war and martyrdom operations today. Islamists do. I don’t see Catholicism’s influence growing around the world today. But Islamic influence is. In fact, Catholic influence is waning, yet Islamic influence increases. Catholicism may have its own treasures, but so does Saudi Arabia. Its oil wealth and riches far exceeds the relative “pocket change” of the Catholic Church. Consider The Kabaa, for instance, draped with pure jet-black silk accented with gold threaded embroidery, and the Grand Mosque, said to be decked with enough “marble, gold, and silver to make the Taj Mahal jealous.” It is the “Whore of Babylon” that is riding the Beast, and very soon the Beast that she has nurtured will soon bite the hand that fed it.

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        • Unknown's avatar
          Anonymous
          05/29/2012 at 8:28 PM

          You are discounting or unaware of the RCC’s involvement with the world governments and their false flag events to get support from us for wars. Oh they are still involved in killing and mass murders, just not in the obvious way you are referring to. RCC owns lands and treasures all over the world. The actual latin title of pope by the way comes out to 666. Popes and priests do not marry, so have no use ( regard ) for a woman. The pope wants to develop a currency, a one world currency.

          Like

  22. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    05/29/2012 at 7:35 PM

    Scotty D, “The First and Third Commndments (not to mention the Second) do serious damage to your argument that the Creator needs to recycle pagan practices to further His Kingdom.”

    Hi Scotty, Easter and Chrismas in no way breaks the first or third Commandments. It affirms them. Although YHWH doesn’t need Easter and Christmas, He can certainly use them both for His Glory.

    Scotty D, “The RCC has murdered more Saints throughout history than Islam could ever imagine killing. You and I just have a bias for what defines a Saint because we want to make sure it includes us.”

    I’m not sure where you’ve gotten that information, but it is factually incorrect. What happened to the Seven Churches of Asia mentioned in Paul’s letters? Have they all become Roman Catholic, or have they all been destroyed and/or converted into mosques through Islamic conquest? The fact of the matter is this, which no serious historian will deny: Islamic jihad is the greatest mass murderer in the history of humanity.

    “Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the victims of jihad. The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest…

    The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam. In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad.

    Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school.” (FrontPage Magazine Feb. 2007).

    And it continues today: ‘Bloody’: Christian Persecution is ‘Coursing Through Muslim-Majority Nations from One End of the Globe to the Other’ – “We hear so often about Muslims as victims of abuse in the West and combatants in the Arab Spring’s fight against tyranny. But, in fact, a wholly different kind of war is underway—an unrecognized battle costing thousands of lives. Christians are being killed in the Islamic world because of their religion. It is a rising genocide that ought to provoke global alarm…” Read more.

    The false RCC view has a serious dilemma on its hands.

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    • Scotty D's avatar
      Scotty D
      05/29/2012 at 9:04 PM

      ICA, so ascribing worth (even unintentionally) to Ieshtar, Tammuz and Dagon are good with the Creator? Please understand this also, The Creator and The Messiah are under no obligation to bless or protect any part of the so-called Christian Church if it is dishonoring them. I would be far more inclined to blame our disobedience for the rise of Islam than to ascribe that much credit to Islam as id it were some type of ultimate manifestation of evil. Not until you are willing to lift your vail, will you be able to consider what I am saying. This will be neither comfortable or reassurring at first, but the Truth must be sought. Your Messiah demands it.

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      • ICA's avatar
        ICA
        05/29/2012 at 9:11 PM

        Worth is not ascribed to false gods, only YHWH Almighty. It is pointless and, in my view, a false argument to assert that Christians are somehow equating false pagan gods with the Creator when they celebrate Easter and Christmas. If you want to believe that, it is your choice, even if it is an odd one.

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  23. Unknown's avatar
    JJJHS aka Bro-dious
    05/29/2012 at 7:39 PM

    Yes Scott you are right about the RCC. They burnt many people at the stake, tortured them and more, for not having confessing faith in the RCC; oh yeah what about our Lord?

    As far as Hebrew, some forms of Judaism (if not many) have respect for or accept Kabbalah and its practitioners. God in that flavoring is named Ein Sof. I assume you know what that means, although is it Hebrew…? However, in Hebrew, how does one pronounce the tetragrammaton? It has been hotly debated for a long long time. Some say it is the 3rd hiephel form of a verb meaning to be or being/existing. Hard to say. I don’t study Hebrew anymore, I am trying to focus on the God and being committed to Him in extremely diffciult times in my life.

    The Father YHWH, God, said that He would hold His Word above His name. Jesus is the Word that became flesh and that is the name that I call upon. It is written that people would call upon the name of the Lord in the end days. How could they do this if they have no idea how to pronounce it, have no idea of the vowels in His name? Would I call out Hebrew letters one by one? Phoenetically? If so, the vav of today was most likely a waw as in arabic but could carry four different sounds: o/u/v/w/ so I am confused.

    I wasn’t always Christian. Jesus did not lie. He came to give life. GBU

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    • Scotty D's avatar
      Scotty D
      05/29/2012 at 8:51 PM

      JJJHS, the tetragrammaton pronouciation will become even more hotly debated once more people awaken and care to see it restored. And in doing so, Scriptures tell us that the Creator will restore it to those who seek it. Our best foundation for this investigation probably can be found in the paleo Hebrew, since the modern Hebrew seems to have been punctuated and vowel-pointed to death. Scholars in that discipline seem to favor Yahuah. We know ancient Hebrews pronounced it thanks to several hundred Psalms and many other verses. So the confusion is only a result of doing exactly what the Father said not to do, which is letting it fall into ruin or disuse.

      The Messiah”s name is far less complicated or mysterious. It is likely Yahusha alrhough Yashua is possible. We know what it is not… Iesous Christos or Jesus Christ. This is a rediculous and completley unnecessary translation and a poor transliteration at best. Contrary to popular belief, the so-called New Testament was originally manifest in Hebrew, not Greek, though most of those manuscripts seem to have been hidden away or destroyed.

      When one does a search for “the name” in the Scriptures, it is completely amazing that we haven’t notice this sooner. When verses are telling us that there is power in The Name, or The Name is a strong tower, or there is no other name given by which men can be saved… There are literally hundreds of verses like this. Why would anyone in their right mind mess with It? Worse than that though, they used LORD (Baal) and God (numerous connections, but refers to a number of gods of good fortune). There is no defense for this. We have been leaning on the vain traditions and empty philosophies of men, and I’m afraid that we are as guilty as the ones who changed it.

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      • Unknown's avatar
        JJJHS aka Bro-dious
        05/29/2012 at 9:24 PM

        well Scott, I see you are guessing at God’s name by simply adding parts of what is found in pieces of scripture. Allow me to show you an example of how Herew words do not insert into each other like pieces of a puzzle. Comment at end of blog:::

        Like

  24. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    05/29/2012 at 9:03 PM

    Anonymous, “You are discounting or unaware of the RCC’s involvement with the world governments and their false flag events to get support from us for wars. Oh they are still involved in killing and mass murders, just not in the obvious way you are referring to. RCC owns lands and treasures all over the world. The actual latin title of pope by the way comes out to 666. Popes and priests do not marry, so have no use ( regard ) for a woman. The pope wants to develop a currency, a one world currency.”

    Islamic influence is much more involved in world governments now than the RCC. Islam is even directly responsible, today, for numerous wars and the genocide of Christians (both Protestant and Catholic). The RCC is not. Islam is directly responsible, today, for verifiable mass murder throughout the world. The RCC is not. Islam, today, continues to build mosques all throughout the earth and spreads its corruption and spiritual adultery around the globe. Many RCC churches are closing due to lack of attendance. Popes and priests do not marry, and therefore have no regard for women in that sense, but popes and priests do not condone the rape of women. They do not capture women as the spoils of war. They do not consider women worth half the value of a man. They do not consider woman only half as intelligent as a man. Islam does all of these things. Who better fits Daniel 11:37? By far, it is Islam.

    As for “666”, we need to look a little deeper. Why do some early manuscripts record the number as 616 or 665, and not 666? The fact of the matter is that “Chi Xi Stigma” likely has nothing to do with gemetria. Here is why:

    The word for “number” in Rev 13:18 is “arithmos” and it does not simply mean number. It also means multitude. This is significant because it therefore means that the Greek text can also be translated as “the multitude of the beast: for it is the multitude of a man.” But what man would that be? There is nothing in the text telling us that the man referred to here must be the end-of-days Antichrist. In fact, consider the following — in order to convert to Islam one must recite the Islamic creed, called the Shahada, by declaring, “There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.” Because of this very fact it therefore stands to reason that the multitude of a man refers not to an eschatonic Antichrist, but rather to Mohammed, the founder and prophet of Islam. If you cannot acknowledge Mohammed, you cannot become a Muslim. Thus, the multitude of the Beast, which is the multitude of a man, are they who receive the Mark of the Beast upon their ‘foreheads’ and are therefore destined for destruction. This is the direct antithesis or contradistinction to the great multitude, which is the multitude of the Lamb (Rev 7:17, 14:4) that receives the seal of God upon their foreheads (Rev 7:3, 14:1) and are therefore destined for redemption (cf Eph 4:30). One multitude is lost and separated from Christ forever (Rev 14:11), the other is saved and received unto Christ (Rev 7:15-17, 19:6-9, 22:2-5) to be with Him always.

    The pope may want to develop a “one world currency”, but Islam already has its own complete system of Sharia finance that they would love to implement throughout the earth. And they believe that when Islam takes over the world, they will do just that.

    Like

  25. Unknown's avatar
    JJJHS aka Bro-dious
    05/29/2012 at 9:42 PM

    @Scott, I have seen part of what you are saying, said by sacred name movements. Each one says their leader or they-themselves have heard God say His name but all are given different names. So who is right? Some say from Yahuveh to Yahawah. As far as Jesus goes, or the Father for that matter, HIS NAME IS NOT PART OF SOME MAGICAL FORMULA. The condition of the heart is though.

    If I may ask, what is the root verb for the word for salvation in Hebrew? What is the trilateral root and in which form (pa’al, etc.) is it? This is the beginning to discuss before presenting points. Any points wthout this (basic) knowledge is pointless waste of time if we are to argue over words, which in the NT we are not supposed to. Is this based on emotion or what someone thinks is correct?

    Yeshua = Iesou = Jesus. May I ask about the word Iesous in Greek? The end of the word ‘Iesou is ended with an S, which means something in certain clauses in biblical greek. Please study (not YouTube) what I am saying before snidely arguing about pagan names and babylonians etc. and telling people they dont know what they are talking about.

    GOOD EVENING, PSEUDO 15-YR LINGUIST

    Like

  26. Willard's avatar
    Willard
    05/29/2012 at 9:47 PM

    Scotty D

    Saudi Arabia has just announced that effective immediatly they will no longer recognize GMT or our calindar. They will only recognize the Islamic calindar from here on forward.

    Da 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws……………

    9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while

    The seven hills of early walled city of Rome are, the Cermalus, Cispius, Fagutal, Oppius, Palatium, Sucusa and Velia. Of the seven hills of current Rome, five Aventine, Caelian, Esquiline, Quirinal and Viminal hills) are populated with monuments, buildings, and parks. The Capitoline now hosts the Municipality of Rome, and the Palatine Hill is an archaeological area. The now-famous Vatican Hill is northwest of the Tiber and is not one of the original Seven Hills of Rome.

    But how do we explain these seven hills or mountains on which this woman sits if they are not the hills of Rome? This has to be an organization because a woman herself cannot sit on seven hills at one time. So it has to be a power base of some kind. Hills and mountains are sometimes referred to as rulers or kings in the bible.

    There are also seven mountains not hills around Mecca. Jabal in Arabic mean’s mountain and the names of the seven mountains around Mecca are Jabal Quba, Jabal Al-Qinaa, Jabal Li Aali, Jabal Jifan, Jabal Jiyad, Jabal Abi Qubais, and Jabal Hindi.

    Revelation tells us that it is the beast itself that had the seven heads and the ten horns. So the key here it seems to me is the beast itself and therefore we must determine exactly who this beast is and where this beast comes from. The angel tells John that she will explain the mystery to him. The beast this woman is riding once was but now is not which if it is not Rome than it certainly does become a mystery if we do not look beyond Rome.

    As ICA said Zech 5;5-11 tells us where to look for her. I lived in the ME for many years and if you look at the link below you will see with a bit of imagination what looks like an arab women dressed in the typical arab black dress – there are the two gold slits for her eyes and also a gold head band

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

    Look at the first two pictures and than read Daniel 3:5-6 and see if the picture is not the same as one sees at Mecca especially during the Haj – than check the 7th picture down and tell me if this silver shroud covering the Kabba stone itself does not fit Rev 17:5

    http://www.sacred-destinations.com/saudi-arabia/mecca-kaba

    Like

    • Unknown's avatar
      Anonymous
      05/29/2012 at 9:54 PM

      The pope wants a saturday sabbath that all would have to obey by law.The vatican also changed holidays and the calender to coincide with pagan beliefs. The calender went from the lunar one followed the jews to days being named after planets. Sunday being after the sun which is at the heart of pagan and masonic and illuminati worship. Saturday is for Saturn, all others had roots in pagan beliefs also. RCC changed the sabbath from Saturday to sunday. though technically according to the hebrew calender may not have even been saturday but was known as such until the RCC changed it.

      Like

  27. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    05/29/2012 at 10:44 PM

    Saturday vs Sunday worship is meaningless according to the New Testament. If it were not so, Scripture would have told us. Instead:

    Romans 14:5, “One person esteems [one] day above another; another esteems every day [alike]. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.”

    Colossians 2:16-17, “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

    Like

    • Unknown's avatar
      Anonymous
      05/29/2012 at 11:07 PM

      Even more so illustrating my point of RCC making it of more importance and imposing laws regarding it and incidentally you wont be able to buy or sell on that day if it went into affect and disobeying that law could get you thrown in prison or a FEMA camp.

      Like

      • Unknown's avatar
        JJJHS aka Bro-dious
        05/30/2012 at 7:01 AM

        I was given an SDA book years ago which covers the power points you are making. Just sayin’

        Like

  28. 05/30/2012 at 1:29 AM

    Tim Warner of all people has a good article on the Sabbath vs. Sunday: http://www.pfrs.org/jewish/hr03.html

    Like

    • ICA's avatar
      ICA
      05/30/2012 at 2:31 AM

      Good article. I agree.

      Like

  29. Unknown's avatar
    Anonymous
    05/30/2012 at 1:50 PM

    Willard – do you have a link for the story regarding SA refusing to recognize any other calendar or time? Very interesting.

    To Scotty – we all see through a glass darkly at this point in time. No one has perfect understanding of God or the scriptures. But, He has made His way of salvation very simple, so that even a child can receive Him. Considering that we are living in the last days, I would implore you (and all of us) to examine your heart before God. You are judging your brothers and sisters in Christ according to your particular interpretation (or those you have been taught). Read and re-read the Sermon on the Mount – are we seeking with all of our hearts to practice the things that Jesus/Yeshua taught there? THIS is what He said we should build our lives upon, not particular, exclusionary doctrines that set one brother against another.

    AtHisFeet

    Like

    • Unknown's avatar
      Anonymous
      05/30/2012 at 1:52 PM

      Amen to that

      Like

    • ICA's avatar
      ICA
      05/30/2012 at 3:45 PM

      One article here.

      Like

      • Unknown's avatar
        JJJHS aka Bro-dious
        05/30/2012 at 6:30 PM

        pretty interesting, thx. did you know that for a whileKSA was(to what degree IDK) trying to eliminate all borrowed words from other languages and trying to make them entirely ancient arabic words?although they would be new words.

        Like

  30. Unknown's avatar
    Anonymous
    05/30/2012 at 6:17 PM

    Boy – that seems significant, doesn’t it?

    AHF

    Like

  31. Willard's avatar
    Willard
    05/30/2012 at 7:35 PM
  32. FX's avatar
    FX
    05/31/2012 at 12:21 AM

    Bonjour,

    Tim Warner of all people has a good article on the Sabbath vs. Sunday:http://www.pfrs.org/jewish/hr03.html

    Good?

    The author takes one of the upmost important commandments from our Father (see Exodus 31.13-17), and renders it optional! As if God had changed his mind.

    Oh boy!

    As our Creator changed between what men call the “Old” and the “New” Testament? If Mr Warner is correct then, God has changed.

    Last I read, the Scriptures clearly said: “For I am Yahweh, I change not” (Mal 3.6 see also Heb 13.8).

    What if Mr Warner were incorrect in his interpretation? Does our Heavenly Father want us to keep His commandments?

    What is it Jesus said? “If you love me keep my commandments” (John 14.15)

    By reading Mr Warner’s article, one gets the impression that his definition of love is different from the Bible. Whom should we listen to?

    Should we listen to People who direct us away from God’s Torah? Whatever Mr Wagner tries to justify, history is clear: the Sunday commandment does NOT come from the Bible, it comes directly from man’s tradition (see Constantine).

    What did Jesus say when he was rebuking the Phasisees?

    “…You voided the commandment of God by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, this people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Mat 15.6-9).

    Personally, I love my Savior so much that I want to do everything in my power to please Him, that is why I take pleasure in His Word and I side with all those who, unlike Mr Wagner, decide to defend His Word. Here’s a good example, very à propos, courtesy of Richards Rives:

    “What’s wrong with keeping the Ten Commandments?

    Today, just as in the past, many of us believe that we should keep our Creator’s Commandments. We are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. We know that there is no commandment that we can keep that will save us; however, once we have received that grace through the shed blood of Messiah, we want to live according to His commandments, by the power of the Holy Spirit – commandments that He said will remain valid and will not change as long as heaven and earth exist.

    What’s wrong with that? What is wrong with keeping the Ten Commandments?

    For those who claim to believe in the God of the Bible it’s hard to find a problem with simply doing what He says. Even so, that is exactly what some people do. They get all upset by the idea that our Creator has rules and regulations. They want to do what is right in their own eyes.

    They call us Judaizers, even though the Ten Commandments were given by the God of both the Old and New Testament — Given not only to Jewish people, or exclusively to the tribes of Israel, but to a mixed multitude when He spoke them from Mt. Sinai.

    They say that we are being legalistic – somehow blocking out of their mind the fact that we make no claim of salvation by way of works.

    Why do they try so hard to find something wrong with keeping the Ten Commandments? They do it because they do not want to be subject to our Creator’s laws and are desperate to find any excuse for breaking them.

    What do you say? What is wrong with keeping the Ten Commandments? What is right about not keeping them?

    Earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the saints; I’m Richard Rives with Just the Facts.”

    Blessings from France,

    FX

    Like

    • A. S's avatar
      A. S
      05/31/2012 at 2:16 AM

      Amen FX you said it right

      Like

      • ICA's avatar
        ICA
        05/31/2012 at 11:27 AM

        Glad to see you’re still following the blog A. S :)

        Like

    • ICA's avatar
      ICA
      05/31/2012 at 11:21 AM

      Hi FX, God didn’t change His mind. He fulfilled His plan. Regarding those who don’t keep the “day of rest” on Saturdays, should they be put to death like Ezekiel 31:14 says? Why not, and what has changed that made the death sentence applicable then, but not now?

      The video posted above explains why the Sabbath was a foreshadowing of our rest in Messiah and no longer refers to a Saturday any more than the Temple refers to a stone building in Jerusalem. We are the ekklesia, the Spiritual Temple, and our Sabbath is now fulfilled in Yeshua. He has become our Sabbath rest. But those who do not rest in Him, well, I think we know what those wages will be …

      http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Sabbath.html
      http://thegracetabernacle.org/studies/gtsn_sabbath.html

      If some want to keep the Sabbath by gathering on Saturdays, I don’t have any issue at all with that. Romans 14:5, “One person esteems [one] day above another; another esteems every day [alike]. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.” Colossians 2:16-17, “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

      Like

  33. Willard's avatar
    Willard
    05/31/2012 at 1:31 AM

    Our goal should be to both keep and honor the ten commandments understanding and knowing that regardless hard we try we fall short – we fail. They show us our shortcomings and failures and our need to turn to Christ who has kept them and fulfilled them for our salvation. I see the commandments a bit like a mirror – they show us a reflection of our true selves,

    Like

  34. Unknown's avatar
    Anonymous
    06/01/2012 at 6:49 AM

    Bonjour ICA !

    Merci for your feedback and question.

    If we don’t keep our “day of rest” on Saturdays, should we be put to death like Ex 31:14 says? If not, why not?

    Allow me to ask you the following: does your question do justice to a loving, full of grace, and merciful Heavenly Father?

    A quick response to your question would be, No. This is not the way our loving Father intended such commandment to be interpreted. Even if it were interpreted the way it was intended to be (which is not addressed in your question), it still could not be applied today as we do not live in the Biblical judicial system where such sentence could be applied.

    Allow me to use several quotes from a very good article to address your question (http://q.b5z.net/i/u/10105283/f/FAQ_-_Are_We_to_Still_Observe_Punistments_for_Capital_Offenses_in_Gods_Law.pdf).

    Your question in itself conjures up a serious emotive response in any loving person. If you are seeking truth, then you are going to be motivated to understand exactly how God wants us to apply and carry out this commandment. Unfortunately, a lot of people desire to not seek out the truth and simply reduce the commandment to a twisted form of its intent and application. Similar questions are often asked by Gnostics or atheist whose goal is to leverage emotion against the Law of God and truth of His Word.

    First, there are several mistakes people are often making in the premise of their emotionally loaded question:

    1) The criteria required to Biblically carry out this commandment
    2) The process required to Biblically carry out this commandment
    3) The structure required to Biblically carry out this commandment
    4) This commandment is supposedly bad to begin with.
    5) Our emotions and desires can establish what is truth.

    Unfortunately, many approach God’s Word with a law abolishing theological paradigm so that makes this issue quite difficult. In this paradigm God supposedly erased certain random commandments that He previously declared as perfect truth. According to such doctrine, at one time our God was a proponent of capital punishment for certain offences and now He has changed and offers a different approach.
    In this understanding basically any commandment that is found in the Old Testament is abolished, unless we can find it directly commanded and taught in a certain interpretation of the New Testament. Even though the Lord’s Sabbath, feast days, dietary instructions, etc. were all practised extensively in the book of Acts by believers such as Paul, Stephen, Peter, etc., these commandments are all supposedly abolished.

    What we are told by theologians (not Scripture) is that those commandments were being practised out of tradition instead of obedience. Many blindly follow such teachings of men and have never questioned and tested such doctrine to His Word. That is a shame because we are all accountable at the Bema seat judgment in the end for what we believe, not for what we were taught. Quite often, and contrary to what we were to learn in Mark 7, it is often our own mainstream doctrines that are caught up in tradition instead of Biblical obedience.

    If we are to believe that all scripture is instructions in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and that not one jot or tittle of the law has been abolished before Heaven and Earth passes away (Matthew 5:17-19) then we must believe all commandments are still applicable for God’s people. Capital punishment is part of the Word of God and is taught out of Moses’ Seat (Matthew 23:1-3). Whether we want to admit it or not, this also includes the Biblical commandments related to capital punishments.

    Any intellectually honest student of God’s Word will quickly surmise that such an application of God’s commandments is not “picking and choosing” by any stretch. God picked and chose
    in advance who was given those commandments and we are required to respect that.
    Just as there are commandments specific for men, for women, for children, for farmers, for elders, for priests, etc. There are the commandments for the Biblical courts. No one can suddenly declare themselves High Priest or an elder, etc., and begin practising their commandments. That is absurd and such is in the case of capital offences and the judicial process.

    This is the heart of the confusion. Most do not realize that those practising the whole truth of the Bible are not refraining from capital punishment commandments because they are “picking and choosing” what commandments to obey and which ones to supposedly ignore. These commandments are for a specific group of people within the body of the holy nation of Israel that currently do not exist as Biblically ordained. The precedent set in scripture from the beginning is that we submit to the authority of the government and nations we are under as long as doing so does not force us to break the commandments of God.

    This is where another doctrinal mistake can manifest. Just because the courts are not established today does not mean that suddenly the Sabbath, or the Lord’s feast days, or dietary instructions, etc. are to be ignored and abandoned. We can not abolish the Sabbath commandment any more than we can abolish the commandment for honesty or refraining from idolatry. Just because the criteria might be lacking for the court commandments to function as designed offers no Biblical support or precedence that we can start picking and choosing other commandments to removed or abolish.

    For example, when the first temple was destroyed and the Jews were in Babylon, just because the sacrificial system was forced to be on pause in the absence of a temple did not give them license to profane the Sabbath, delete the Lord’s feast days, or declare pig and lobster as food. Just because the Biblical court system is not currently established as it should be is not a valid excuse to randomly nullify parts of God’s law. All of God’s law still applies, we just need to apply it Biblically.

    If anyone actually practised the capital punishment commandments today they would actually be breaking the commandments of God, not following them. They would be ignoring and breaking the established Biblical process given to those who are Biblically accountable to enforce and judge on these matters. We are commanded to not do that ourselves, as we are not granted such autonomy.

    Thus, accusations of “not practising Biblical capital punishment” as being contradicting to pursuing Torah (Law of God) obedience are merely the result of not doing one’s due diligence in understanding His
    established Word. They become false accusations. So unless someone is actually confusing us as a group of judicial court elders, the whole premise of the question is simply not Biblical.

    So, why Does God Institute Capital Punishment?

    Capital punishment is designed to teach, govern, and bless us. In scripture, those who refuse to walk in God’s ways are said to have hearts of stone (i.e. Ezekiel 36:26-27). It is quite the irony is that God chooses to use stones to address such behaviour in His established Judicial system.

    One clear purpose of obedience to God’s commandments is to bless us: (Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14). When others begin practising ways and traditions against the commandments of God it begins to infect God’s people with anti-law behaviour, or sin. Sin is bondage according to God’s Word and it is God’s desire that His people are not corrupted and living in sin. It is God’s desire to purge extreme public sin from His body so that it does not corrupt the rest of the body and place others in bondage. In doing this the capital punishment system places fear and attention back to God and His ways (i.e. Deut. 21:21) while at the same time removing individuals who have no desire to love God (i.e. 1 John 5:2-3).

    God’s ways are so good and such a blessing for His people that God can not allow one person or a small group of people to negatively influence the whole body and thus cause them all to turn away from God. This is a case of God correcting a few to save the whole from travelling the same destructive path.

    Numbers 15 gives us an account of just that…for someone who has desacred the Shabbat!

    Sorry for this long answer! I think it is important to understand our Abba’s Word in the right context, thus the above explanations.

    I’ll address your other points in a different post.

    Grace, mercy and peace. Blessings,

    FX

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  35. FX's avatar
    FX
    06/01/2012 at 12:01 PM

    Re-bonjour ICA !

    We are the ekklesia, the Spiritual Temple, and our Sabbath is now fulfilled in Yeshua. He has become our Sabbath rest

    OK, but still, does this fact give us the licence to disobey the 4th commandment of our beloved Father? And does not James say that if we break one commandment, it is as if we had broken all of them (Ja 2.10)?

    Let’s face it, when we do something on a regular basis, like Sunday rest, or the observance of special days at given dates (like Christmas, or Easter), then we are under a law.
    The question we should all ask ourselves is the following: under which law do we want to be? The law of God or the law of men?

    Those who rest on Sunday, observe days and feasts that are not commanded in the Bible find themselves under the law of men. Jesus calls them traditions and commandments of men and does not have kind words to say about those (see Mark 7).

    If some want to keep the Sabbath by gathering on Saturdays, I don’t have any issue at all with that. Romans 14:5, “One person esteems [one] day above another; another esteems every day [alike]. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.” Colossians 2:16-17, “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

    If we replace the above Scriptures in their context and interpret them the way they should be interpreted, that is not with our Greco-Roman mindset, but with Paul’s right frame of mind (which was 100% Hebraic and based on Torah), then in no way was Paul telling his audience that they could do as they wished, in regards to the 4th commandment.

    Think about it! Not only Paul did not have the authority to change God’s Instruction, but even if he did (let’s assume it for a moment), then according to Jesus’s very words, Paul would clearly position himself in the camp of the “leasts in the Kingdom”!

    In regards to His Father’s Instructions, if we read our Master’s words in Matthew 5.17-19, then we see two ranks:

    1- the rank of the “leasts in the Kingdom”, reserved to those who “break one of these least commandments [10 commandments], and shall teach men so”, and

    2- the rank of the “great in the Kingdom”, reserved to “whosoever shall do and teach them [10 commandments]”

    Now, do we want to be least or great in the Kingdom? We decide. And clearly, according to Yeshua, this will depend on:
    1- if we follow Torah,
    2- if we teach others to do so.

    Let me quick to add this: the issue here is not salvation, as those who will make it to the Kingdom are those who are saved.

    Regarding the links you provide, the issue I have with them is that they openly teach to break one of the commandments (the Shabbat). If we now look closer at the arguments put forward, we realise that they contradict the Bible. Let’s have a look at the arguments put forward in the “8 Reasons Why Jesus Christ Has Become Our Sabbath Rest” (http://thegracetabernacle.org/studies/gtsn_sabbath.html):

    “1. The Sabbath was a command given specifically to Israel.
    There is no biblical record whatsoever of anybody keeping the Sabbath prior to Exodus 16 (Neh. 9:13-14). Even after they received the full-blown Sabbath command (Ex. 20:8-11), Israel who often condemned the sins of her pagan neighbours, never criticized their violation of the Sabbath.”

    => What about Genesis 1? What was the first thing man did after being created on the 6th day?

    The Sabbath day was blessed and set apart for mankind to rest and enjoyed a set apart time with his creator. It was then given to Israel who were supposed to be the light of the world and teach mankind the Instructions of Yahweh.

    Who is Israel the Israel of God now? According to Paul (Gal 6.16), it’s the believers in Yeshua! If the Church was walking the way Yeshua walked, then we would all worshipped our Saviour the very day He set apart for His children to do so!

    (And in parenthesis, think about the impact it would have on the unsaved Jews if all believers walked the way they are supposed to walk, ie: in the fullness of the Torah, lead by the Spirit of Yahweh. Now that would sure lead the Jews to jealousy!! (Rom 11.11, 14))

    “2. The Sabbath was part of God’s ceremonial law and not grounded in His unchanging character.
    The Sabbath was a ceremonial law given specifically to Israel, not grounded in God’s unchanging nature. Similar to the entire old covenant, it has been fulfilled and brought to completion in Christ (Mt. 5:17). If David had a right to make an exception in the ceremonial law, Jesus had more (Mt. 12:1-8; c.f 5:21-48). Even Jesus said,” The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath” (Mk. 2:27). Moreover, He called Himself the “Lord of the Sabbath” (Lk. 6:5).”

    => We see in the Bible that the Shabbat is part of God’s top 5 commandments. These 5 commandments show us how to love our Creator. According to God, the love we express for Him is directly linked to our obedience to His Instructions (see John 14.15, 1john 5.3).

    “3. The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant
    (Ex. 31:16-17; Neh. 9:14; Eze. 20:12). Because we are now under the New Covenant we are no longer under obligation to keep the Old Covenant, particularly the sign of the Old Covenant. The writer to the Hebrews remarked, “When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear” (Heb. 8:13).”

    => This line of though is grounded in a Greco-Roman interpretation of the Bible. The sign of the Shabbat is intemproral to those who love God and not limited to a particular group of people at a particular time in history. This dispensation doctrine is not grounded in the Scriptures.

    The very sign of the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit. Once we are saved, according to Ezekiel 11;19-20, the very role of the Holy Spirit we receive, is to help us walk according to the Torah of Yahweh. Out of love we obey Him by walking like Yeshua walked. Did Yeshua break the Shabbat?

    According to Pharisaism/Judaism (ie: traditions and commandments of men), He did. According to God’s Instructions, He never did, not even once!

    “4. The New Testament nowhere commands Christians to observe the Sabbath.
    The church is warned of many sins in the New Testament, but breaking (or observing) the Sabbath is never mentioned. The book of Acts mentions the Sabbath nine times, never once as a day of worship for Christians. If anything, the Apostle Paul rebuked the Galatians for attempting to add the observance of days to the sufficiency of Christ’s work for salvation (Gal. 4:9-11). The church even changed their day of worship from Saturday (the Jewish Sabbath) to Sunday (the Lord’s Day) (Ac. 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2) to show that a new order had been erected with the resurrection of Christ (Jn. 20:1, 19).”

    “The New Testament nowhere commands Christians to observe the Sabbath”.

    => Of course! Such practise was a given. All the first believers were Jews and were “zealous for the Torah” (Acts 21.20).

    It is also worth saying that the New Covenant was not made with an new entity separated from Israel. It was made with the House of Israel (10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom who disobeyed and were exiled into the nations) and with the House of Judah (2 tribes, the Bible calls the Jews). See Jeremiah 31.31.34 and Hebrews 8.

    Separating the Christians/Church from Israel is not biblical! The Israel of God is made of believing Jews in Yeshua (descendants from the House of Judah) and believing “gentiles” (among whom many are bound to be direct descendants of the scattered 10 tribes of the House of Israel).

    “If anything, the Apostle Paul rebuked the Galatians for attempting to add the observance of days to the sufficiency of Christ’s work for salvation (Gal. 4:9-11)”

    => And quite rightly so! Paul was facing people who were teaching that IN ORDER TO BE SAVED, one needs to follow and obey Torah! This is an heresy Paul condemn as he knew this is not the role of Torah!

    We are saved by faith through grace and not through works. The issue we discuss here is not salvation, but how one is supposed to walk once he has been saved (ie; follow God’s Instructions out of love, or follow the ways of the world?)

    “5. Jesus Christ through His redemptive work regained the Sabbath that Adam lost & 6.The Sabbath was a sign that pointed to something greater & 7.Jesus Christ has now become the Sabbath rest for Christians under the New Covenant..”

    => Does Jesus’s redemptive work give us the licence to disobey Him? On the very contrary, the Bible commands us to walk the way He walked. See 1 John 2.6.
    We have to ask ourselves the following questions:

    – Did Jesus observe the Shabbat?
    – Did Jesus worship on Sunday?
    – Did Jesus celebrate pagan feasts?
    – Did Jesus eat things that the Bible does not call food (see Leviticus 11)?

    How does the world live? In sin?
    What is sin according to the Bible? See 1 John 3.4 : sin is the transgression of Torah!!

    Does the Bible ask believers in Yeshua to conform to the world or to live a set apart way?

    Once we are saved (it is always crucial to repeat this!), setting oursleves apart, according
    to the Bible is walking according to God’s Instructions. That’s how He will judge and reward us (ie: great or least in the Kingdom). In the end, we will all be accountable to Him for our walk as believers. We will be judged by His Word and how we related to it (obeyed it out of love or not).

    8. The Christian’s ultimate Sabbath rest will be enjoyed in heaven
    (Rev. 14:1 3; c.f. 14:11). Though we currently rest in Jesus Christ under the New Covenant, our supreme Sabbatical rest will be realized in heaven where we will enjoy the ultimate rest in the culmination of God’s new creation (Rev. 21:4; 22:1-2) away from the curse in the direct presence of the Lamb (Rev. 22:3).

    => Actually, the Bible teaches that our ultimate Shabbat will be here on earth first, not in heaven! First during the Millennium Kingdom where Christ will reign on earth from Jerusalem. Saints will be reigning with Him and teach Torah to the nations (see Isa 2). And you can be sure that we will be teaching and celebrating Shabbat!!

    Yeshua is coming back soon and we know He comes back for a spotless bride. Let us ask this question : what is a spotless bride, how do we become one?

    The answer is everywhere for us to see in the Scriptures if we want to find out. It’s all related to our walk as obedient children…

    Blessings dear bro,

    FX

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  36. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    06/01/2012 at 3:04 PM

    Bonjour mon ami, in the Genesis account of creation, have you ever considered why the seventh day contains one significant difference from all the days of creation before it? Unlike the other days, there is no reference to an evening or morning. Why? Additionally, “on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.” There was no more work after the seventh day. It was done. Fin. Complete. Does it not stand to reason that this day was therefore intended from the very beginning to be a foreshadowing of our rest in the substance of Christ according to Colossians 2:16-17? I say, yes, it was.

    Hebrews 4:9-11a, “There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God [did] from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest…

    As for “what is a spotless bride, how do we become one”, I think that it’s straightforward: It is those who hear, and then believe the Word of God. To have faith in Yeshua is all that is required. There is nothing else required of us. We come as we are. We believe, and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, for to have faith in Christ is to then be baptized — washed, cleansed — by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 6:11, “… But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” As John the Baptist declared, “‘I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit'” (Mark 1:8). And to be in Christ — the fulfillment of the Sabbath — is to enter His rest. Made spotless, and with the Holy Spirit within us, the author of our faith will be faithful to complete it.

    Matt 11:28-30, “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

    There is much that we’ll agree with, but we don’t have to agree on every single point. Where we don’t, such as how we interpret the Sabbath, we’ll agree to disagree and will not be something for the Body to divide on. What unites us together, that is what truly matters.

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    • FX's avatar
      FX
      06/02/2012 at 7:44 AM

      Bonjour ICA…Shabbat Shalom!!

      Interesting comment about the seventh day, indeed!

      “Unlike the other days, there is no reference to an evening or morning. Why?”

      Could it be because this 7th day is foreshadowing the Millennium reign of Christ on earth, which then opens to the new area that comes after?

      Have you ever thought about the following: the Torah uses many themes connecting the people of Israel’s calling (and remember, the Israel of God are the believers in Yeshua!) to the calling of Adam, the first man.

      Just as Adam was the first man, called to obedience and called to set an example for his progeny, so likewise, the people of Israel have been called to obedience as the first nation to be called the people of God.

      In other words, thematically, the Scripture teaches us God dwelled with man until sin entered the world (Genesis 1-3). And remember, according to the Bible, sin is the transgression of God’s Instructions (1 John 3.6). God tried to encourage mankind to seek Him for restoration; however, mankind continually failed to reach out to Him (Cain, the generation of the flood, and the tower of Babel, (Genesis 4-11). Realizing that mankind—as a whole—would not seek restoration with God, He chose Abraham and His descendants to be a model nation so that they could be a witness of the one and only true God, leading the nations to repentance (coming back to following God’s Instructions) and faith in Him.

      We can now understand that God is commissioning Israel (that is the “Church”) just as He commissioned Adam in Genesis! The thematic connections teach us the following analogies:

      1. Adam = the people of Israel

      2. Garden of Eden = the Land of Israel

      3. The choice between the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil = Israel’s choice whether or not to obey the statutes and commandments, including Shabbat observance (which is the very sign between Yahweh and His children!)

      Hosea 6:7 tells us: “like Adam they [the people of Israel] transgressed the covenant; there they dealt treacherously with Me”.

      Scriptures tell us that’s exactly the reason why Yahweh made a new Covenant : because His chosen people failed to have faith in Him and walk according to His Ways (Torah). God sent His Son who initiated the New Covenant. After Jesus’ resurrection, believers then received the Holy Spirit…

      “.. I will put a new spirit within you. And I will remove the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh, so that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. And they shall be My people, and I will be their God”(Ez 11.19-20).

      What about us, believers if we harden our hearts, not to obey the One we say we love?
      Who is the sole benefactor when we disobey?

      “There is much that we’ll agree with, but we don’t have to agree on every single point.”

      On many issues, I fully agree with you! But what should we do when truth is at stake?

      Should we disagree agreeably, even at the expense of Truth?

      This is exactly what we see within Christianity! And that’s why it is not bearing fruits,and still thousands of miles from provoking Jews (the House of Judah) to jealousy. Satan is laughing out loud! Just like he deceived Adam & Eve in the Garden, he is using the very same trick to deceive Christians: “Did God say…?”

      Did God really say we should rest on Shabbat? Isn’t Jesus your Shabbat rest? Surely, you’re free to do whatever pleases your heart…”

      Same old trick! It worked back then, it’s still working now!

      Yeshua is returning back soon, and He returns for a glorious church, without spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.

      “As for “what is a spotless bride, how do we become one”, I think that it’s straightforward: It is those who hear, and then believe the Word of God. To have faith in Yeshua is all that is required. There is nothing else required of us.”

      Had you written “what is a bride, how do we become one”… I would have said a big Amen, I fully agree. That’s what required to be saved and to become part of the bride.
      But does thing stop when we are saved? What follows next? Why are we saved for? Should we continue to sin after we are saved?

      God forbids!

      In all honesty ICA, can you look at Christianity today and say that it is the glorious Church, without spot or wrinkle or any such things? Can you say the Church is holy and without blemish?

      Why do you think there are thousands of believers from all sorts of Church denominations, all around the world, who are returning to their Hebraic roots and who are eagerly seeking to walk according to our Father’s Instructions (amongst them, returning to honoring the Shabbat day, eating what the Bible calls food, and celebrating Yahweh’s Feats instead of pagan ones)?

      These are the wise virgins, those who want to appear glorious, without spot or wrinkle or any such things before their groom. Those who want to be holy (that is set apart from the world) and without blemish.

      Revelation 12 and 14 clearly talks about these people when it mentions those having the faith of Yeshua and keeping the commandments of God.

      Yeshua is returning soon, indeed! I pray the Holy Spirit will also open your eyes on the above wonderful truth!

      There are some very good teachers out there. 119 ministries is a good place where to start (http://119ministries.com/home). And they have some excellent end of time teachings!

      I see you have a link to El Shaddai Ministries. Mark Blitz is a good Torah teacher (and he actually has a great series on the spotles bride. Check it out, it’s free on his website). In some previous posts, Jim Staley’s ministries was also mentionned…

      I pray Abba will move your heart for you to go and listen to what the above have to say about the “restoration of all things”! And like Paul says: “Test everything, hold fast to what is good.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

      Peace and shalom dear bro. Great site, thanks!

      FX

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  37. Willard's avatar
    Willard
    06/01/2012 at 3:19 PM

    ICA – Great insight on the seventh day no evening and morning – never thought about that that way before but certainly makes sense.

    Like

  38. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    06/05/2012 at 4:35 PM

    FX, “Have you ever thought about the following: the Torah uses many themes connecting the people of Israel’s calling (and remember, the Israel of God are the believers in Yeshua!) to the calling of Adam, the first man.

    Just as Adam was the first man, called to obedience and called to set an example for his progeny, so likewise, the people of Israel have been called to obedience as the first nation to be called the people of God…

    We can now understand that God is commissioning Israel (that is the ‘Church’) just as He commissioned Adam in Genesis”

    Bonjour mon ami FX, ça va? The law wasn’t given to Adam, and Adam was never instructed to keep the Sabbath day. But Adam did receive the Promise of the Deliverer to come (cf. Gen 3:15, the “protoevangelium”). This pointed to Messiah, in whom we rest, and Adam rested upon the Promise himself, not the Sabbath day. The commandment to keep the Sabbath day did not come until more than two thousand years later. Noah didn’t keep the Sabbath. Nor did Enoch, nor Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob — yet Abraham is called “the father of us all” (Rom 4:16). Why? Because he had faith in the Promise of the coming Deliverer, the “last Adam” (1 Cor 15:45).

    FX, “Yeshua is returning back soon, and He returns for a glorious church, without spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

    Amen, He is. But when He comes back and He is busy judging the heathen nations and the wicked, will He pause to observe the Sabbath day? Will Christ, to whom all judgment has been given, refrain from doing any work on the Sabbath? He didn’t pause to observe it when He was here the first time:

    John 5:8-9, 17-18, “Jesus said to him, Rise, take up your bed and walk. And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath… But Jesus answered them, ‘My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.’ Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”

    Jesus was working on the Sabbath, but according to Exodus 35:2 “Whoever does any work on [the Sabbath] shall be put to death.” It seems that Jesus “broke” Exodus 16:29 on many occasions, too, doesn’t it? “Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” And how many who observe the Sabbath today have “broken” the Sabbath by lighting a fire to cook or stay warm? (cf Exodus 35:3). The Sabbath obviously contained these ordinances. If Messiah “abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances” (Eph 2:15) and “nailed it to the cross” (Col 2:14), then why insist that we — under a superior New Covenant — must still follow the Old Covenant statute upon which those ordinances were contained?

    FX, “The choice between the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil = Israel’s choice whether or not to obey the statutes and commandments, including Shabbat observance (which is the very sign between Yahweh and His children!)…

    On many issues, I fully agree with you! But what should we do when truth is at stake?”

    This is where many will tend to understand the Scripture differently. Some will view the need to continue observing the Sabbath day literally as they did in the Old Testament, others recognize that it was merely a shadow of the substance now fulfilled in Messiah. But we are no longer under the Old Testament or covenant. We are now under a “better covenant” (Hebrews 8:6, “kreittōn” – more excellent, superior). If Christians — who are under a better covenant and have been adopted into the Israel of God — are suppose to keep the Sabbath day literally as they did under the Old Covenant, then where does Scripture tell us this in the New Testament, and where does the New Testament tell us how to observe the Sabbath day? Au contraire, mon frère, Scripture now tells us repeatedly that we are to rest not on a literal Sabbath day — a shadow — but rather that we are to rest completely in Christ — the substance, and fulfillment, of the Sabbath. It is a better covenant indeed. “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.” (Col 2:16-17).

    Hebrews 4:9-11a, “There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God [did] from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest…

    Romans 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

    FX, “Peace and shalom dear bro. Great site, thanks!”

    Shalom to you as well my friend.

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    • FX's avatar
      FX
      06/06/2012 at 8:56 AM

      Bonjour ICA,

      Ca va bien, je te remercie !

      Merci pour ta réponse ! We could go on and on, arguing back and forth, but until the Holy Spirit clearly reveals it to you, you will miss the mark concerning the importance of Shabbat in our Father’s eyes.

      This particular Instruction is the very (visible) sign witnessing to the world that one follows the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

      The law wasn’t given to Adam

      Torah means instructions !

      Didn’t Adam receive instructions from his Creator? (Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it…)

      Wasn’t Adam put in a place where he could choose to obey or disobey? (Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it…)

      Wasn’t Adam cursed because he disobeyed his Creator’s instructions?

      Believers are at the very same place today. We are not talking about salvation here. We are talking of blessings (for obeying) and curses (for disobeying) in our lives. We are talking about sanctification. Being set apart. Being lights,and being the witnesses of the One true God.

      How to be set apart from a corrupt world, in which anybody does according to his own heart (i.e.: do not follow their Creator’s Instructions), if you don’t follow what actually sets you apart?

      Our everlasting position (great or least in the Kingdom (Matt 5.18-19)) will directly depend on our obedience to His Word (all His Words from Genesis to Revelation). Also, it is our obedience to God’s instructions which will determine whether He will use us as His lights and His witnesses.

      Adam was never instructed to keep the Sabbath day

      If our Creator blessed and set apart a particular day, and clearly commanded His children to rest on this day (for their own good). If of this day He clearly states “It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever” (Ex 31.17), and if our Creator does not change (Mal 3.6), does not it stand to reason that one of the very first thing He must have said to Adam, was to rest on this holy and blessed day?

      You may think this is not the case, but doesn’t your actual understanding go against the logic of what the Bible says in regards to the 4th commandment ?! Remember, Yeshua Himself says: that the Shabbat was made for Man (Adam!).
       
      Greetings and blessings from France.

      A bientôt mon cher frère !

      FX

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  39. ICA's avatar
    ICA
    06/06/2012 at 4:45 PM

    Bonjour mon frère, yes we could go back and forth all day I am sure. :) As my last reply on this topic, please consider the following:

    FX, “Torah means instructions ! Didn’t Adam receive instructions from his Creator? (Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it…)”

    Yes, “Torah” means “instruction”, but although Adam was instructed not to eat fruit from the tree and to be fruitful and multiply, he was not given the Torah. Moses says in Deuteronomy 5:3 that “It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.” The commandment to keep the Sabbath, which did not come until thousands of years after Adam, was therefore not given to Adam, highlighted by the fact that the word for Sabbath is never mentioned anywhere in Genesis.

    FX, “If our Creator blessed and set apart a particular day, and clearly commanded His children to rest on this day (for their own good). If of this day He clearly states ‘It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever’ (Ex 31.17), and if our Creator does not change (Mal 3.6), does not it stand to reason that one of the very first thing He must have said to Adam, was to rest on this holy and blessed day?”

    True, our Creator does not change. But His covenant did, as did His law. See Hebrews 8:6, “He [Messiah] is the mediator of a better covenant” and Hebrews 7:12, “For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.” Additionally, out of all Ten Commandments the Sabbath is the only one that is said to be “throughout your generations” (Exodus 31:13). Why? This is a phrase that was indicative of a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews. For example, the passover “shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD throughout your generations” (Exodus 12:13-14). Must we celebrate Passover, and if it is not a requirement, why not? Is it not due to the fact that “Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us” (1 Cor 5:8), and was the substance that fulfilled the shadow? Or in Exodus 29:41-42 instruction was given by God for His people to sacrifice a lamb at twilight, which was to be “a continual burnt offering throughout your generations”. Should the people of God still sacrifice a lamb, even today? No. And is it not because the Messiah is the substance that fulfilled the shadow, “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29)?

    The Sabbath, likewise, has itself been completed in the work of Christ. Just as the Feast of Passover and offering a sacrificial lamb no longer need to be kept “throughout your generations” and are now fulfilled in the substance of our Savior, let no one judge you “for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality” (Col 2:16-17).

    But don’t just take my word for it. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thess. 5:21).

    May our Father bless you, keep you, make His face to shine upon you, and give you peace …

    Like

  40. 06/06/2012 at 11:42 PM

    Additionally, out of all Ten Commandments the Sabbath is the only one that is said to be “throughout your generations” (Exodus 31:13). Why? This is a phrase that was indicative of a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews. For example, the passover “shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD throughout your generations” (Exodus 12:13-14). Must we celebrate Passover, and if it is not a requirement, why not? Is it not due to the fact that “Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us” (1 Cor 5:8), and was the substance that fulfilled the shadow?

    These words above made me think of Lev 23 and what are mistakenly called the seven “Feasts of the Lord”; the problem is, there are not seven, but eight. The chapter begins like this:

    “The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:

    ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.”

    We forget that the first Feast (actually the word is ‘appointed time’) is actually the weekly Sabbath, then comes the other seven. What is significant about these Feasts? Do we still keep them? What do they communicate? How were they actually fulfilled, at least the first four (or is it five?)

    Those of us interested in the end times know the significance of Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits and Shavu’ot–these speak of Jesus’ sacrificial death, sinlessness, resurrection and pouring out of the Spirit on Pentecost. Many of us believe too that just as Jesus fulfilled each of these first four Feasts on their very day in the same year, Jesus will do likewise to the last three when he returns–perhaps returning on Trumpets, separating Sheeps and Goats on Yom Kippur and inaugurating the Millennial kingdom on Sukkot.

    But what is the Sabbath doing in this list of Feasts looking forward to Yeshua’s accomplishments, at the very head of the list? Before we even get to the Feasts we get a reminder of the Law of God? No! The Sabbath belongs in this group because more than anything Yeshua is our Sabbath rest! We don’t have to keep the Law, Yeshua did, and consequentially we do, perfectly, because we are “in Christ.”

    This is the meaning of the EIGHT Feasts of the Lord–man was not created for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man–Jesus is our Sabbath:

    Heb 4:2-4, For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

    “ As I swore in My wrath,
    They shall not enter My rest,”

    although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “ And God rested on the seventh day from all His works…

    So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest…

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